Ofsted Talks

Further education and skills: Are colleges meeting skills needs?

In this episode, Mark Leech (Director of Strategy and Engagement) talks to Richard Beynon (Senior HMI, FES Policy) and Kate Hill (Specialist Adviser, FES Policy) about enhanced inspections and how colleges are meeting skills needs. 
 
Transcript
Mark Leech
Hello everybody and welcome to another edition of Ofsted Talks, the Ofsted podcast. My name is Mark Leech and today we're going to be talking about an area of work in our further education and skills inspections. We're going to be talking about enhanced inspections of colleges. So this is inspections that particularly are focused on how colleges are meeting skills needs. Today, I'm joined with two colleagues from our further education and skills team, Richard Beynon, and Kate Hill, welcome to you both. Let's start with you Richard, perhaps we can have a little chat about why this is important and what the expectation is on colleges in terms of meeting skills needs. 
 
Richard Beynon
There's a growing force behind this I think that we've seen developing across the past three or four years and it came to a head I suppose in 2022. There was some legislation that actually directed colleges to think about their skills work but colleges have always been the engine of skills in our economy. They've always dealt with vocational skills, they've always dealt with personal skills for a lot of learners. They've always been responsible for the upskilling of adults who come back to learning after a pause or a gap in their education. So colleges have always been there with this skills work. I think it's just that in the last couple of years, government has focused attention on that area of colleges work.
 
Mark Leech
Is it sort of looking nationally or more regionally? How wide are they supposed to be casting their net?
 
Richard Beynon
It's both really, because some colleges for example, land based colleges or specialists dance and drama colleges, serve a national need.
 
Mark Leech
That's really interesting. Kate, so that's what we expect colleges to be doing, our role obviously is to go out and check that it's happening on the ground. How do we go about doing that?
 
Kate Kill
We actually have usually two dedicated inspectors, one will lead on the skills aspect, and then they'll have a colleague that will work with them. What they'll do is they'll spend some time talking to different stakeholders attached to that particular college. We came up with some headings and they were community, education, employers, and civic. When we make a call to plan the inspection, we ask that the leaders arrange calls with their main stakeholders from those four groups so we start to get a picture of how they're contributing to the priority sectors in the region or area or nationally. At the same time, our team inspectors are deep diving into some chosen subjects. If we looked at health and social care, for example, we would ask the Curriculum Manager to arrange for a couple of calls with some health and social care stakeholders that might come in and talk to learners, might be involved in designing the course and having a say in what they think would be useful for them to learn, or in what order they might need to learn things. 
 
Mark Leech
Thanks Kate. I suppose the big question then is what are we finding on these inspections? We've been doing them now for a little over a year. How many have we done and what are we finding?
 
Kate Hill
We've completed 65 of these enhanced inspections, that's as of the end of the academic year. Out of those, we have found that four of those colleges or providers, we judged them to be making a limited contribution to meeting skills needs, 40 were reasonable, and 21 were strong. Overall, 94% percent were strong or reasonable.
 
Richard Beynon
It's worth saying we use a three scale criteria for this skills judgement. We don't use the normal four scale grades that we use for other things on inspection. We just say that a college is either strong in its contribution or reasonable or limited.
 
Mark Leech
So what's the difference? If you're strong, what are you doing that the others aren't?
 
Richard Beynon
For college that strong, typically you'd find that they have a good range of stakeholders that cover different fields. They might be employers, they might be civic stakeholders, they might be community groups. So there'd be a diversity in that range of stakeholders. Also, those stakeholders would have a good contribution to the strategic thinking and positioning of the college's curriculum. So senior leadership teams might involve stakeholders in discussions about where the college positions itself and where it's heading in the broadest top level terms. But also to be strong, a college would need to have curriculum engagement with stakeholders. And that could be, for example, engineering staff when they're devising their curriculum, work with local engineering employers who come in and deliver a bit of the curriculum or who revise the curriculum each year with the teaching staff and make sure it's up to date and captures all of the things necessary for the sector. It would vary depending on the curriculum area. For sixth form college with A-levels, the stakeholder group might be universities who might come in and deliver talks to students about the sorts of things they do at university if they were studying law, or accountancy, or whatever it might be. So the nature of the stakeholders is different depending on the type of college. But with that strong judgement, we want to see the top level strategic stuff going on, and the curriculum input. It's very important to see it both in the classroom and at the top level strategic thinking.
 
Mark Leech
Kate, so looking at the other end of the spectrum, I'm sure if there are college leaders listening, they'd be interested in where colleges are perhaps falling down on on this measure. So where we have found that they've not been up to scratch, what typically isn't happening that should be?
 
Kate Hill
I think it would be fair to say that most of the colleges are making a reasonable contribution to meeting skills needs. Where they are not quite meeting the strong criteria, generally they're not consistently involving those stakeholders in the design and implementation of the curriculum to make sure they're preparing those learners for future work or future education. And that's one of the criteria that we see repeatedly that it's not consistently done. It might be happening brilliantly in A-level psychology, but there's nothing really happening in the engineering level three course. The other area is making sure that not only is that curriculum well planned and well taught, but those learners including apprentices are actually learning skills they need.
 
Mark Leech
Do we talk to the learners and apprentices to get their perspective on their training and how well they feel prepared? 
 
Richard Beynon
Yes very definitely and to the employers of apprentices as well. So we'd ask the employers, what are the skills that the apprentices bring to the workplace and are they up to date and current and useful? And we'd ask the apprentices how they feel about the skills they're learning. Are they learning them in a coherent way? The usual kind of curriculum questions.
 
Mark Leech
I'm interested in this area of how we're preparing learners for the local economy and the national economy. We talked a little earlier on the balance between the two. To what extent are we reflecting what's already there broadly speaking in terms of job opportunities I guess. And to what extent are we trying to move that market to create more skills in the economy in certain priority areas? So I'm thinking about a green technology, for example, now how much of that plays into our work.
 
Richard Beynon
Well, as inspectors go into each college for an enhanced inspection they receive from our data and insight teams in Ofsted, a very detailed skills analysis which looks at the part played by the LSIP in the area, the Local Skills Improvement Plan. It looks at skills shortages across the region, sub region, and in the local economy. So the inspectors are very well briefed about the way the college positions itself and about the needs of the local and regional economy as well. Often we'll find that, colleges have identified a shortage area with their stakeholders. And maybe they haven't put courses in just yet, but they're planning those things. Not everyone can react to a skills shortage or a skills need instantly. It takes several years to perhaps develop programmes and develop expertise amongst staff, but we recognise work in progress where it's happening.
 
Mark Leech
And how much of this sort of enhanced element feeds through into the overall grade that we give a college. How does it stack up with the other aspects that we look at on inspection?
 
Kate Hill
There's always an influence very much. When we're talking about skills and making sure that learners are developing the skills that they need. There is of course, a crossover with the quality of education. Then there is of course, a crossover with how well the leaders and managers are leading and managing that aspect. But as Richard already said, we make a sample judgement using a set of criteria, which will give them a separate judgement separate from the overall effectiveness and the key judgments, even though there will be an element of it that will filter into at all.   
 
Mark Leech
You can certainly see why this area is so important because ultimately it is about people leaving college with something that's really useful to them in terms of the future economy and in terms of its future health. 
 
Kate Hill
And it may be that, you know, we find that for example, construction is a particular need and a sector priority in an area and the college we go to doesn't offer construction. But they will say to us in one of our many conversations, well the reason we don't do it is because the college down the road are doing a jolly good job of it. And so therefore, we work with them and they do construction and we focus mainly on engineering because that's where we are experts. And so the conversations we have with the leaders and managers make sure that we understand how the sector priority is met if it's not directly themselves.
 
Richard Beynon
It's important in a metropolitan area or a large city that we take into account the other providers in the neighbourhood in the kind of locality. And we look at the way providers map their provision across one another to make sure there's no overlap and no unnecessary duplication.
 
Mark Leech
That's really interesting and thanks very much. I think that's been a really good look at this area of work. It's clearly really important and growing in importance. So thank you for your time Richard and Kate and thank you to everybody who has listened to this podcast. If you want to hear more from us, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and listen out for the next episode.
 

T levels: making a difference to UK plc?

In mid 2023, Ofsted published a report into T levels: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/t-level-thematic-review-final-report
Here we hear from two college leaders, John Laramy, Principal, Exeter College and Diana Bird, Principal, Shipley College, about the challenges, opportunities and hopes for the future of the newest addition to the qualifications on offer for learners.
Shreena Kotecha  0:00  Hi I am Shreena Kotecha head of strategy at Ofsted. And joining us today we have Diana Bird from Shipley College and John Laramy Principal from Exeter college and we also have Ofsted's finest Richard Beynon and Paul Joyce, from further education and skills. So today, we're going to be talking about T levels. We're actually recording this podcast the day after the announcement by the Prime Minister about plans to change T levels and A levels. We're awaiting the developments with interest. But in the meantime, we're going to talk about T levels. Anyway, a question for our two guests - are our students enjoying T levels?
John Laramy  0:43  They very much are. So we get really good feedback from the students who take them. And they go on to some amazing progression opportunities. I would say that we certainly had really positive feedback from the students who have chosen them. I think that they aren't for every student. I think it is a demanding programme. It's a big programme. And I think in certain areas, finding the industrial placement is a real challenge. But students are really enjoying the T level, we're getting a lot out of it. And what we've been amazed by is how students have been able to progress straight from a T level into things like a degree apprenticeship.
Diana Bird  1:17  Yeah, I'd agree with John, I think it's very much about making sure that you've recruited the right students onto the T level programmes. And for the students that are well suited to a T level, it is a fantastic experience. And we've seen similar things in terms of our students' progressions, so great experiences when they get into the right placements with  employers who appreciate what those students are contributing to those organisations. And a number of our students have progressed to employment in those organisations where they've had their placements, which has been an amazing outcome for them. So for the right students, a fantastic programme.
Richard Beynon  1:55  Can I just ask, one of the things that we reported on in our thematic review of the rollout of T levels was that some knew, I think it was a small minority, but some T level students had difficulty getting their T level recognised as an entry qualification for higher education. Is that still a problem? Well, or has that been a problem for your students?
Diana Bird  2:25  I'll be honest, in the area that we're working in, in West Yorkshire, we've not found that at all. So we even had one of our first cohort, secure a place at one of the Russell Group universities, so that was really positive outcome there, in terms of our local universities, which is where the majority of our students generally from the college tend to progress and we work really, really closely with them. So I think it's about the work that you do with your local universities or with the universities, to help them to understand the T level. And I think that's been one of our big challenges. As the as educators and as colleges, we've, we've become very familiar with the T levels. But I don't think that that's something that is, a generally shared piece of knowledge. And that's, that's going from schools to students to parents and and also into the university. So we've we've worked with them to help them to understand the curriculum to help them to see what students will be studying. And the universities have then been very happy to take our students but equally, they've amended their own curriculum in response to what's in the T level curriculum, because what we were finding with a lot of the curriculum in the T level was replacing what was in the first year of the degree. So they've had to amend their programmes. So we've we've certainly won them over. Because the amount of content and the challenge, the difficulty of the T level convinces universities that that those students have really demonstrated a high level of skill when they've achieved a good grade in a T level.
John Laramy  4:00  I think it's a great question, which I think my my experience is a little bit different to Diana, I think in terms of some universities are very open to T levels, where they understand that they've learned about them, I would say that it's not yet uniformly accepted right across the full suite of universities. And I think that's a piece of work for us collectively to do to help the T level brand grow, that help it be more recognised. So I think that there are opportunities for young people to progress to university from T levels but I think it's probably slightly narrower than we wish it to be. And there's probably a narrower choice.
Shreena Kotecha  4:42  Both of you sort of emphasised in your opening remarks that these are great for the right sort of student. Can you do a sort of pen picture of the sort of student you think really benefits from T levels?
John Laramy  4:53   So it's a young person who has a particular interest in a particular vocational discipline. If where they sort of know, that's where their passion lies, is relatively able. So I think one of the things that we need to be really open and honest about is that T levels are very rigorous and large programmes. The assessment mechanism is very, very challenging. And the content in some areas, I think, as Diana was saying, you're in some cases you're studying at year one of degree level content. So that does mean you need to work very hard to get the right student on the right course. And I think the industrial placement also adds an extra element of excitement, there's no doubt that is a bit of the magic formula. But that hybrid working, that changed after the pandemic has put some additional barriers in certain areas. And I think, in some areas, we've probably got a pre COVID policy for a post COVID world. And I think, you know, and I think that was something Ofsted commented about, about the particular challenges in in some areas. But my experience is, it's the young person who may have in the past done A levels, and this young person has chosen to do something in an area that they're really interested in.
Shreena Kotecha  6:11  And kind of conversely, do you have any students who you think don't do well with T levels? And can you do a sort of similar picture of what what that sort of person is like?
Diana Bird  6:19  Yeah, I'll pick that one. I think John talked about assessment. The assessment is extremely rigorous, and, and very, very academic. And that's not suited to all of our students. I think at the moment where we're in a position where, where T levels form part of an offer, that sits alongside A levels, B techs, various other types of qualifications. And we're able to identify those sorts of students, it provides another option for a different type of student, so probably a student, you know, who would have gone down that A level route. So conversely, the T level is not appropriate for a lot of the students who have traditionally taken those vocational qualifications within colleges. And I think from my point of view, that's, that's the group of students I'm most worried about at the moment, I have an alternative for those students. And those students are still able to study to level three to be able to demonstrate their skills in a very different way. Not always through that sit down formally examination, but being able to demonstrate them in much more practical, consistent, other rigorous ways of assessment. And, and so at the moment, while we have that option, the T level enhances the qualification offer that we have for our students. My big concern at the moment is that all of the research that has been done has been looking at students that have been selected or have been guided towards the T level, because we know that they are, they fit that profile that John was talking about. My big concern is that we haven't really considered and the T level review doesn't really consider how they will be rolled out, how they will serve and meet the needs of students who are who we currently are not choosing to put onto T levels because there's something else that is better for them. And I think that the review might have looked very different, had had it been done in three or four years time, if that were to be the only level three offer that we have for our students.
John Laramy  8:17  I think the other thing I'd probably add to that is just around the capacity and space to deliver things like your GCSE retake. I think one of the positive things about a T level is the expectation of additional teaching hours. I think with that comes the challenge that if a student has a particular skill in an area, like English, but hasn't quite got there for maths, alongside other level three programmes, we're able to fit a GCSE, retaken alongside that, where the young person is a level three student, but just has one area that they need to work on and retake that isn't possible with in my experience, that's not possible with the T level. So it's it's legally possible. But it's not practically possible. And I think that's something that we just need to be really cognizant of. And I think is is a challenge, which sort of leads to to the point that Diana was making really is that, that it's important that we do have other options. They're not for every student.
Richard Beynon  9:15  And John, you referred to it not being practical or possible to introduce other qualifications alongside that simply because the hours involved in T levels soak up the students timetable, make it impossible for them to do another qualification alongside,
John Laramy  9:36  correct. So it's partly the hours that need to be deployed and the hours that need to be deployed for the industrial placement. But it's also the content there in some of the the T levels, the exam elements 60 hours in duration. So to fit that exam in one needs to start assessing that in February. And of course that's a particular challenge. There's only so many hours in the day. For many colleges, young people do quite a commute to get to college, because they've chosen that college as their destination of choice. So, you know, it's not practical because a logical explanation could be, could you stretch the day, these young people, they're already leaving home very early in the morning, getting home quite late at night.
Richard Beynon  10:19  And you both talked about the assessment element of the programmes. One of the things that we highlighted in our thematic review, and actually we made as part of our recommendation back to the Department for Education was to look at the assessment loading across T levels, because some seem to carry a very heavy burden of assessment. Staff found that difficult, students found that overpowering, really, is that something that you've been aware of? And it has that perhaps even shaped your choice of which T levels to offer?
John Laramy  10:57  I think, for me very aware, and I think it's one of those challenges that, you know, one of the the nice things about the Ofsted review is you looked at the totality of the T level. If you look at different elements, if you take the health T level, for example. And you look at the different I think it's eight different components in the assessment on their own, each of them look really good. But when you add them all up the scale and bureaucracy to manage that particular process, with potentially quite a big growing cohort of students, all of a sudden isn't any longer a viable proposition. So for me, I think it's it's almost using the the findings that you have as Ofsted and using that to really scale up T levels and say, well, if they were bigger, what would the assessment regime be like, and I think that's where we need to do that piece of work now, to not lose the ethos, but to actually make it scalable. So that would be my experience. I don't know, if Diana's had a similar experience.
Diana Bird  11:57  I agree. I like the style. I'll talk again about the health one, I particularly like the style of the way that that's done and the way that mimics the kind of assessments that that young people would have if they progress on to university or if they take on that career. But the sheer numbers of staff, physical space, so the rooms that you need to do that. And you also need a you know, a large number of specialist staff to be running those assessments. And not all colleges will have seven or eight people who are specialists in that area who can run that qualification. And I'll tell you, we actually had an up when we made the decision, the employer Set Project, which is the eight assessments in lots of different spaces for students separated, obviously, so they can't communicate, we opened at the weekend, because that was the only way that we could find the space to do that while the college was was running. So it's it's very, very resource heavy, apart from the pressure that it puts on staff and students.
Paul Joyce  12:56  Great to hear the things you're doing to to make T levels work for your for your students. I think we found, you know, at their best T levels are a really, really good programme, and students and providers do do really benefit from offering them within a wider curriculum offer. John, you touched on and it's something we we majored on in our review about industry placements. And some of the challenges there, could you tell us a bit more about that John?
John Laramy  13:31  There is no doubt that the industry is it is a magic element of the T levels. So I would not, you know, for a minute be saying it's not a great idea. But I think in certain areas, by geography, by location, by the type of industry that sit in an area, I think that we do now need to think carefully about what is reasonable and achievable for each of the different individual pathways. And I think that how I would like to say it is on a continuum. If you had child care at one end of the continuum, where you would say that there is no way you can replicate looking after a three year old having two children myself, I can understand what that's like, there's no way you can replicate looking after a three year old in any other way than actually doing that. So so for me that needs a pretty big sizable industrial placement, because that's what's required. The digital? Today we're doing this podcast in different offices spread across the country. That's how many digital staff now work. We can give individuals and young people great experiences of new digital experience new digital platforms, different coding that perhaps doesn't sit on the syllabus to enhance their learning if they're unable to get an industrial placement for the full duration. And it seems to me that sort of one size fits all model isn't quite right for the post COVID world that we now operate in, and perhaps T levels need on that continuum to have an expectation at one end of childcare, and then perhaps a slightly different expectation, if it's a digital T level. And I think it's almost it's just really important that this honest conversation to continue the development and evolution of them so that they are great that they make a difference to UK PLC, and so that providers are able to scale and improve them year after year.
Diana Bird  15:25  Our students have some amazing experiences. Like John said, I think that anybody who's been involved in work placements will tell you that when students go out and have a good experience have a really high quality experience. What they learn on that is completely is completely irreplaceable. So you provide students with that whole range of employability skills, and and you give them real life experiences, and you put them head and shoulders above other students. And I'll be honest, the student - my children have gone through and done done A levels. So they go through, they do their A levels, they gain the qualifications, they they you put them alongside a student who's been on a T level, who spent hours in a placement in industry. And they, I would argue they can't compete in terms of those employability skills and the stories that they have to tell and what that adds to their CV. So in the best placement students go in and they're given particular tasks to do, they're given projects to carry out and to take ownership of, and that gives them an amazing story to tell at interview. However, it's really challenging to provide that consistency of quality to scale up those number of placements. So at the moment, you know, I think last year, three and a half thousand students did a T level. And we found it difficult to find the right sort of quality placements for all of those students. Now, three and a half thousand is a really, really small number across the country. 
Paul Joyce  16:54  A really good point. 
Diana Bird  16:54  It's a very, it's a very big challenge for us to find the number of placements that are required and and we'll be competing with each other we'll be competing with the other colleges, we  will be competing with schools who start to come on board, and who also want to deliver to deliver placements. But we're also competing with universities, who can who can pay towards their placements. So that, you know, that's been a bit of a challenge for us. And I think the other big challenge that we found is that we are talking about 16 year olds starting on these programmes. Now your 16 year olds, particularly in the post pandemic world, they're often quite you know that there's a poverty of experience there. And we, you know, a lot of what we talk about those employee employability skills and behaviours that employers are looking for. Now at 16, many of our students, they don't have them yet. And so we can talk very, very convincingly with employers about them, and we can give them great examples. But when we send that when we send that 16 year old, they leave us they, they obviously we go through a long period with them of preparing them, we talk to them about behaviours, we train them for those behaviours. But when they go into that placement as a 16 year old walking in, they don't always exhibit those behaviours that we're expecting them to present by the end of their programme. And so you know, there's a, we have to work really hard with employers to set very realistic expectations of what they're going to get with a 16 year old who comes in on placement, we have to convince them of the value that that will bring to their organisation. And you know, and we've had a lot of success with that. But they also need to know that they are investing in our young people, that they will be part of that young person's development and growth. They're getting a young person who needs their support, their guidance, and an opportunity. So I think that's a challenge. The other one I would say very specifically around the health area is it's a real challenge to get a 16 year old, a placement in a hospital, the experiences that they get on the very best placements, we have students within the first week, see a baby be born see a hip replacement, but we also see how the students see see somebody on their ward die. And these are big issues, both very positive and very sad realities of the industry, they're going into that we have to prepare them for. So the challenges are are huge, but the benefits are immense when we get it right.
John Laramy  19:24  I think the only thing I'd probably add would be you know, not to not forget is travel. I think particularly in rural areas, where young people are doing, you know, significant commutes to get to their college or provider. I think then to try and find a travel route to a different location of a great employer who just happens to be in the next town or the next city or in the middle of nowhere, as as you would imagine in Devon we have occasionally. I think that's an interesting - just bear in mind that sometimes it's it's a practical challenge.
Richard Beynon  19:57  In a strange way there are difficulties if you're in a metropolitan area, because different colleges might be soaking up the available employer placements. But actually there are also difficulties in in a rural area where the opportunities are further afield and more more sort of thinly spread. On on the back of what you've both said about students being ready and you know, hitting that age of 16 entering such a big demanding programme. Can we talk a little bit about the transition programme for T levels? There's a one year transition programme at level two for these these programmes. We found some some shining examples and some less positive examples when we did the thematic. Can I ask you,  first of all, do you do you engage with the T level transition programme and your views on it? If you do?
Speaker 3  21:00  In our in the first few years, we haven't. And we found that to be a really difficult sell to students in terms of sort of what they're going to get from that. Because often what they need is a lot of maths and English, which isn't necessarily the appeal. So yes, it has the placements, but they're going to be spending time resitting and you know it, that's often the barrier to them being able to engage on a T level. However, we have introduced them as of this year, we can see the benefits of developing a programme, which essentially looks something like a three year programme. So for some of our students, they will need that three years in order to achieve a T level.
Richard Beynon  21:39  So the two are very closely integrated the transition programme and then the eventual T level. 
Diana Bird  21:46  Absolutely, yeah.
John Laramy  21:47  We've been running the transition programme for a while. And I would say that I think the main function of the transition programme needs to be to help the young person achieve their maths and English. I think we see that as an absolutely critical element. I think our learning thus far has been that it also works well to have a small vocational qualification within that, even though it's not mandated within the guidance, we've found, it's actually really helpful for a young person to have a bit of a North Star that's going, 'well the thing I'm passionate about is this so that if I can keep working towards a qualification in the thing I'm interested in alongside my maths and English', we think that's probably the solution we're homing in on.
Richard Beynon  22:32  And presumably that gives them a sense of achievement after year one builds their confidence if they get that nested vocational qualification?
John Laramy  22:44  Yeah, absolutely. And it was really lovely, actually, we had a visit last Monday and one of the students who's now on the health T level did the transition programme the year before,  managed to get their maths and English, but also got some skills around that health component. That's a great stepping stone, if you like, into the T level. But you know, designing a programme to lead you on to another programme is quite a complicated thing to say, you know, 'I know you're passionate about IT, great news, you're going to be studying quite a lot of maths and quite a lot of English'. Designing those programmes and getting the right staff and the right environment. I think it's a really important element.
Richard Beynon  23:20  You know, part of the T level transition programme offer is meant to be some form also of work placement. Does that have additional difficulties in that some of those transition level students may be, you know, a step further back to the folks you were both talking about earlier on, even less ready as it were to go out and engage?
John Laramy  23:45  Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, it's also been exacerbated by that by the pandemic, there's no doubt that, that I think young people have learned less social skills, just because they have had periods of lockdown. And I think we're all working very hard to get the right behaviour, attitudes and attendance into young people. So yeah, it's it's definitely amplified the challenge.
Paul Joyce  24:09   One of the things we found was some difficulty that staff that typically taught on BTech and and other programmes, found the transition to T level teaching and particularly assessment, a little bit difficult. One or two issues with sort of staff retention and recruitment on these programmes. Can you give us a bit of a flavour about how you've dealt with that?
John Laramy  24:31  I did have a bit of time to listen to the Prime Minister's announcement yesterday and was very, very pleased that staffing in favour education and staffing in technical disciplines where it was sort of front and centre. It's not been easy. It's a great quote that I really like, which is 'any education system can only be as good as the people who work in it'. And certainly that's my experience. So we've have we have found it difficult. But we've also found that we've got some amazing staff who've come from digital, who have really embraced the concept of the industry element of the T level. But it's not easy, you know, on our college risk register. Staff being particularly for those higher technical roles is probably our biggest risk and our biggest challenge.
Really interesting. John, Diana, what, what's your perspective on staffing?
Diana Bird  25:27  I think we've experienced the same sort of challenges as John in terms of trying to recruit people with the right skill set into into the organisation. One of the ways that we've we've worked with our current staff, obviously, there's been quite a considerable amount of training that's been put out by the Education Training Foundation, which we've prioritised for our staff, we've also encouraged them strongly encouraged them to do much more in terms of sort of industry updating, so getting them back out into the sector. Having lots of conversations with employers so that they can update their skills, you know, if it's existing staff who are moving across the T level, we need to make sure that their skills and their knowledge are you up to date with the with the industry. And you know, a lot of the industries we're working with are incredibly fast paced. But also we've recruited from industry as well, and that comes with, that brings great benefits because they come very, with very current knowledge. But then you're taking somebody who is a specialist in their area, and you're developing them as a teacher, whilst also developing a brand new programme and some of the challenges additional challenges we've had around that have been the amount of materials that we've received from awarding bodies or the you know, the example questions or style of exams, because everything's so new. We're not just bringing on bringing people in from industry to train them as teachers in something that as colleges were hugely confident with, we're actually asking them to develop brand new programmes alongside that. So industrial updating and relationships with employers are absolutely essential to ensure that the teaching and learning is currently is up to date and is inspiring for our for our young people. But it is a really challenging area, and recruiting staff from industry where they can be paid significantly more than I'm able to pay them at the college. You know, there are lots of people, I think who will be interested in moving into teaching and sharing the experience that they've had over years. But the salaries are just not comparable.
Shreena Kotecha  27:31  Thank you very much, everyone. It's been really interesting to hear about T levels. We've just got time for a few final reflections. And I wondered as part of that, whether you'd be able to say whether, if you had your time again, you would do a T level? And if so what in?
John Laramy  27:45  Well, that's that's a pretty easy one for me to answer. I think, after starting doing an apprenticeship, I then did a BTech ONC back in the day, and then a BTech HNC. ONC, which is an ordinary National Certificate, HNC a higher National Certificate, all of that part time. So I definitely would have been a candidate for a T level back in the day.
Diana Bird  28:07  I would do any traditional a level route. So I if I'm quite honest, I think that's probably where I would go again, it's where my children have gone. Also, however, having seen the huge benefits that come with the quality industrial placements, I would like to see those added into the to the A level programme, because I think that they give young people an amazing advantage over students who take that classic academic route.
Richard Beynon  28:36  I think probably I'd be quite interested in one of the T levels that's being launched this this year, which is in the fourth wave of T levels. And that's the legal one always had a hankering to be a kind of a courtroom, a courtroom voice. I think I'd pursue the legal one.
Paul Joyce  28:57  I had a very similar journey to work to what John described with apprenticeships and technical and vocational education. My background been in construction and engineering. So I'm certainly a T level fan. I would happily go and do a T level at their institutions. I think that there are some issues that policymakers need to address to make these truly reach the potential that they're capable of.
Shreena Kotecha  29:26  Thank you so much to our guests Diana and John, and thank you very much to Ofsted's finest Paul and Richard for a really interesting conversation about T-levels. 
 

Careers: are young people getting the information, advice and guidance they need?

Are young people getting the #careers information, advice and guidance they need? Listen here to our podcast on careers with thanks to Nicola Hall, Careers and Enterprise Company, Ryan Gibson, Gatsby Charitable Foundation and Katy Tibbles, Turner Schools.
Mark Leech  0:12  Hello and welcome to another edition of Ofsted Talks. My name is Mark Leech and today we're going to be talking about the wide world of careers and careers education. Ofsted has recently published 'The independent review of careers guidance in schools and further education and skills providers' - quite a long title.  But a very interesting report and we'll talk about that in a little while. Joining me today I have quite a big panel actually Paul Joyce Ofsted's Deputy Director for further education and skills, Ian Tustian, who is an advisor on policy and quality of training at Ofsted. Nicola Hall, who is Director of Education at the Careers and Enterprise Company, Ryan Gibson, who is senior advisor for careers at the Gatsby Charitable Foundation, and Katy Tibbles, the trust head of careers at Turner Schools. Nicola, I wonder if you can talk a bit about the current landscape and the big changes in careers guidance in schools and further education recently and a bit about the pressures on careers leaders at the moment?
Nicola Hall  1:22  So, the careers guidance system has changed immeasurably over the last few years, and has really significantly moved forward. And we now see a modern industry-lead careers guidance system, which has been embedded through a national infrastructure of careers hubs, which is delivered and led by trained and qualified careers leaders across the country. So over 3000 careers leaders have now been trained through a fully funded suite of qualifications, which is supported by the Department for Education. We've seen over recent years almost universal adoption of the Gatsby benchmarks across schools, special schools and colleges throughout England. And those benchmarks set out a world class standard for those institutions to follow. And there's no cost to any of these services to educational institutions in England. Additional changes include a really increased focus on parental engagement within careers guidance, but also the introduction of enhanced provider access legislation to ensure that young people are accessing parity of impartial information regarding apprenticeships and technical education. Whilst the professional status of careers leaders and the elevation of careers leadership develops well across the country. There are still some pressures that we commonly see. Firstly, a lack of strategic leadership support. This strategic support allows careers to be aligned when it's done well to school development and improvement priorities. Another potential barrier for careers leaders is when they are being asked to undertake two roles. So that of the role of careers leader which is oversight and leadership of the whole careers programme in an institution. But also sometimes it can be problematic when the careers leader is also asked to undertake the role of impartial specialists careers advisor. Both of these roles are essential within the careers guidance system. But both of them are significant in size. And if we see those two roles conflated it can pose challenges for careers leaders. In some cases, careers leaders have a lack of allocated time and resource. For example, it might be still commonplace in some institutions, for careers leaders to have a small TLR (teaching and learning responsibility) and a couple of hours a week allocated to careers leadership. In the context of the size of the role and the achievement of the eight Gatsby benchmarks. This is likely to be insufficient, unless there is well layered wider operational support for the careers leader. And sometimes careers leaders can tell us that they're a lone voice. However, I like to liken careers to agendas like literacy, and the development of literacy so that everyone in a school or a college has responsibility to be careers curious to be able to hold careers, conversations with young people and to be able to effectively signpost to specialists as well as help young people understand careers opportunities by building those conversations into curriculum plans.
Mark Leech  4:37  Thanks. Thanks, Nichola. So there's lots to unpack there and I think maybe before we come to the Ofsted team to talk a bit about our report and what it what it found it be quite interesting to hear from Katy, I think on on some of those challenges and how you deal with them, I suppose in in the day job as it were. 
Katy Tibbles  4:58  Lots of the points that Nicola has highlighted, things that either I've experienced in the past, or I know that my peers in other schools are still experiencing, particularly around the pressures involved with careers leadership and the need to have a strategic role and to have a vision and to be in a position where you can drive that forward. I do know lots of careers leaders who are also careers advisors. And that's something that doesn't sit very comfortably with me, because I think they are two very different roles. 
Mark Leech  5:34  So yeah, to the uninitiated, include myself in that, do you want to join a break down the differences?
Katy Tibbles  5:40  Yes. So for me, like a careers leader is you need to have a good knowledge and understanding of the careers landscape. But you need to be able to turn that then into a strategic vision that meets the needs of your school. So there's no one size fits all I would say in careers, the Gatsby benchmarks provide a fantastic framework for us all to work towards. But for a careers leader, you really need to consider how they fit within your own context, and how you can meet the needs of your pupils through the benchmark, that is quite a different skill set to perhaps a careers adviser who on a day to day basis, might be more operational, working more directly with the young people delivering guidance interviews. And there are two very different needs to different skill sets. Some people can do them both, which is fantastic. Some people have strengths in different each of those areas. So for me, I do think that that's very important to recognise the role that the careers leader plays beyond that of a careers advisor, and the need for that leadership, development, strategic thinking, but also to be able to be an advocate at a senior level for careers in a school because whilst we have made huge progress over the last few years, there is still a long way to go. Some circumstances there are senior leaders that still need a bit of convincing actually about how important careers is within a school setting. So your careers leader needs to be able to be an advocate for careers and always be fighting for it when we're talking about school priorities and trust priorities. They need to be the person in the room that saying, Okay, how can careers contribute to this?
Mark Leech  7:33  Thank you. That's, that's really helpful. And I'm going to come to Ian in a second to talk about our report. But, Ryan, I just wanted to bring you in quickly because we've we've heard a lot about the Gatsby benchmarks. And again, if you're not from the careers world, you might not be as au fait with the with the benchmarks do want to talk a little bit about what they are, how they're used, and how that plays into the role of careers leaders in schools.
Ryan Gibson  7:56  The Gatsby benchmarks as both Katy and Nicola have alluded to define what good looks like in relation to careers guidance, there based on international evidence of what works and achieving all of the elements of each of the benchmarks is what constitutes world class careers guidance. It's good to see the recent education select committee report and indeed, Ofsted independent review of careers guidance, recognising that schools and further education and skills providers find the Gatsby benchmarks useful in developing and reviewing their careers provision and was great to hear Katy allude to that just now. When we think about the benchmarks, they've become the bedrock really of career guidance in England. They're embedded in the government's career strategy, they are central to that. And CEC data shows that over 90% of schools and colleges now measure their progress against this framework. Nicola used the phrase almost universal adoption. And that's what we've seen, we've seen almost universal adoption of the benchmarks. And that's something that was confirmed in our own open consultation survey, which we ran at Gatsby earlier this year. It what that shows is that belief in the value of the benchmarks is strong, and it's widespread. And I think that's because they're working, and they're having an impact. We heard the importance there earlier of senior leaders and the role of senior leaders and senior leaders have consistently shared with us that the positive impacts that the benchmarks are having on outcomes for young people. And this is definitely reflected in national data, which I'm sure Nicola will, will talk about. But it shows that many more young people are leaving education with improved career readiness now, improved destination outcomes as well with the greatest impact being on some of the most disadvantaged young people in some of the most disadvantaged circumstances. 
Mark Leech  9:58  Thanks, Ryan that's, that's really helpful. So I've got a couple of colleagues from Ofsted with me before going to - Paul, just quickly do you want to talk broadly about the part that careers plays in in our inspections?
Paul Joyce  10:15  Sure, Mark, and really nice to hear colleagues there endorse many of the findings of our report. We all know careers, education, advice and guidance are absolutely essential to enable children and young people to understand the full range of available options. We really did see many examples of good practice, as we conducted the survey, a really strong commitment to providing good high quality careers advice and guidance. But as Nicola said in what I thought was an excellent summary, you know, much more work to do. It is an important part of of inspection in both schools, colleges and other providers. And inspectors do spend an amount of time focusing on careers advice and guidance, to make sure that children and young people are getting the full range of information and are equipped to make the right choices going forward. So really important part of of inspection, and really pleasing, Mark, as Nicola, Katy, Ryan have said that we have seen certainly on inspection, and as confirmed through this survey, and improved picture over time, significant change careers hubs, Gatsby benchmarks, tools and resources, making an awful lot of difference. Whilst not always, more to do and, you know, areas and aspects that could be better, but generally a positive picture, I think moving in the right direction.
Mark Leech  11:59  Fantastic. Thanks. So. So Ian has been very patient. Do you want to come in and just add a little more to what Paul says?
Ian Tustian  12:06  Absolutely. I mean, there's a couple of points that other guests have already said already. Katie talked about the sort of permeation, if you like of a culture through a school, and certainly in the work that we did, where we identified that high quality careers guidance, there was really a whole school approach. There was significant buy in from leaders and staff. And really that model  of effective careers being seen as everybody's responsibility in the school with that real clear emphasis on effective communication between the careers leader, between staff members, between career specialists, curriculum leaders, and the like  throughout the setting, and also in terms of reference to what Ryan talked about. We saw almost all schools using the Gatsby benchmarks to structure and review their careers programme, and school leaders viewing those benchmarks in a really sort of positive way. And as being a useful framework for what good practice looks like. In terms of in some of those those wider findings, in general, leaders in both schools and FE and skills providers understood their statutory responsibilities for careers. And that includes in reference to the updated January 23 guidance. And that came through strongly in much of the evidence collection that we did as part of the review. We saw many schools ensuring that pupils received the unbiased guidance that was balanced between those academic and vocational options. But that really wasn't the case in all schools. And actually, a lack of unbiased guidance wasn't usually about schools deliberately choosing to sort of push pupils in particular ways. More lack of that, that strategic planning again, which Katy and Nicola alluded to, and that that real careful attention to the needs of the individual young person in that setting, we saw teacher's knowledge of those technical pathways could be a little bit more limited, especially in respect of T levels. And with some learners in VI Forms and VI Form colleges really wanting more information on technical pathways, post 16 and post 18 as well. Gatsby four, which talks a lot about linking curriculum and careers together, we saw that working well actually in a lot of schools that we visited about two thirds of the schools. In those instances, we saw curriculum leaders working well with careers leaders, and assigning a high profile within subject areas to careers education, and we saw that integration of careers into curriculum plans. However, not always the case, though, and still some work to do in some instances and to make sure that, that work of the careers as Katie said that work of the careers leader is not in isolation, but feeling its way through into lessons so that young people are able to see how their learning in mathematics will help them going forward. We saw sometimes a lack of clarity around specific aims for year groups particularly lower down the school in year seven, eight, it  sometimes wasn't clear what the thinking behind the careers programme was. In terms of the pandemic, that negative impact on careers especially around work experience has moderated a little bit. As in the working world, as we're sat here working at home, there has been a change in the way that we work. And that's presented real challenges for schools in terms of ensuring that young people have those high quality encounters with the world of work. Two more points just quickly Mark, to draw on for schools and FE and schools, providers that were engaged with career hubs, we could see those played an important role in ensuring effective employee engagement and they contributed more widely to careers programmes. But one thing that leaders in schools and FE settings picked up was around the use of destinations data to improve careers provision, some noted it was actually really difficult in practice, because of time and resource to collect this data. And because of restrictions around things like data protection requirements, some leaders really wanted some additional help with this, and thought the system in their local area could be improved. So those are sort of if you like the broad brushstroke headlines from the thematic review.
Mark Leech  15:56  Thanks Ian, so interested in views from colleagues, particularly from outside Ofsted whether you think that those findings chime with what you're seeing, I'm interested as well in this idea of the linkages with with employers, the opportunities for work experienc the impact of the pandemic, and how we're seeing things now a little while on from, from lockdown.
Nicola Hall  16:23  it was great to hear Ian, refer to the efficacy of careers hubs when they're really being used well within local areas. But of course, some of our listeners might not know exactly what a careers hub is. So a careers hub is a place based entity whose function essentially is to bring together schools, colleges, employers, and apprenticeship providers, and frankly, anybody that is involved in the careers guidance ecosystem in a local area, across England. So we currently have 90% of schools and colleges that are eligible to join a careers hub there's geographical coverage for 90% of institutions in the country. And we expect that to rise to 95% across the course of this next year. So their goal locally is to make it easier for schools and colleges to improve their careers guidance offer to be able to enable and prepare young people for their next steps. So careers hubs support progress against the Gatsby benchmarks. And they help careers leaders to collaborate locally in a focused way, bringing together good practice and local labour market insight in particular. So, I see the careers hub as a dedicated support team for a careers leader. A careers leader in an institution should be connected into their local careers hub infrastructure, and they will be able to unlock some of the relationships and some of the developments that that help with some of the agenda issues that have been raised. So work experience opportunities, for instance, would be a good example of that. I mean, in essence, they are there to help a school build their capacity. They're, they're there to help careers leaders with their professional development. And they're also there to help them build networks, particularly with industry. So a careers hub will be able to point a careers leader to professional development opportunities, they will be able to signpost careers leaders to high quality and fully funded training offers to help them undertake their roles. They facilitate local communities of practice so that careers leaders can work together to share practice to not reinvent the wheel, and to really ensure that careers guidance keeps moving forward. But also careers hubs are able to unlock funding to pilot innovative approaches. At the moment, we have 10 projects across the country who are working intensively to support to support disadvantaged young people with effective transitions to further education. And it's a really intensive support programme. And those types of programmes come round all of the time. So this year, this financial year, we're focusing on investing an additional 3 million pounds across the country to support further work experience opportunities, and they look different in different parts of the country overall.  Careers hubs will be starting to really focus on quality of provision. And this year, they will start to implement something called the careers Impact System, which is a peer to peer review system to enable colleagues in schools and colleges to work together to really drive their strategic careers programmes forward so that they really are focusing on the needs of individual young people, irrespective of their circumstances in institutions across the country. In short, really you'd be crazy not to engage with your local careers hub, because it is their job to help you address some of the challenges that that have been surfaced as part of the Ofsted thematic review this year. And I think that the more engagement we have, the further and faster we can drive these initiatives forward across the whole country and really make a difference and impact for every young person.
Ryan Gibson  20:28  I would endorse exactly what Nicholas said engagement with careers hopes sees accelerated progress in terms of Gatsby benchmark achievement. And we know the more benchmarks that are achieved the greater impact on outcomes for young people. Just picking up on that point on employers. Employers are absolutely crucial to good career guidance, and probably worth just reflecting back on the framework of the Gatsby benchmarks here. It essentially provides a common language for engagement and benchmarks five and six, in particular focus on employers and experiences of workplaces. But of course, employers can have a role across many of the benchmarks. And we've seen tremendous practice, for example, in employers supporting schools to link curriculum to careers (benchmark four in our language). And there are many ways that employers can engage. And these are outlined in our 'Navigating the education landscape' document, and indeed, picking up on that consultation that we held at Gatsby earlier in this year. We saw employers agree that the benchmarks provide a strong framework for career guidance for employers endorsing that. And employers actually themselves identified an improved relationship between educational institutions and employers as a result of the Gatsby benchmarks. So employers are absolutely crucial. And we see fantastic engagement through career hubs.
Katy Tibbles  22:02  Just to really reinforce everything that Ryan and Nicola have said, to pick up on Nicholas point, actually about careers can sometimes be lonely. People often say that when you work in careers, sometimes you are the only person in the school, I'm really lucky because I have a team, which is fantastic. But not all schools are that fortunate. And it can be a lonely world. So actually linking in with those networks that are available through the hub, through other schools, which you know, the careers hub helped bring together as well, I think that is incredibly important. So, again, when we're thinking about the pressures on careers, leaders, they can get support from those networks, it is important that they engage, because there are, there's support there. And there are opportunities there. So it doesn't have to be a lonely world. And it doesn't have to be pressurised because there are solutions out there.
Ian Tustian  23:00  Young people are still saying that they value those quality experiences in the workplace and how important they are in terms of future career decisions. And thinking about those in the round beyond simply a week in year 10 or a week in year 12. Thinking about those in terms of running a student enterprise, participating in things like social action projects, work tasters, and those those that wider opportunity to engage with those employees. And the pandemic has had an impact there. And schools are working hard to try and try and if you like rekindle some of those relationships with employers to make sure that pupils can benefit from those those wider experiences.
Nicola Hall  23:38  It's a common misconception that work experience is the only approach. And in some, in some institutions, a traditional form of work experience works brilliantly well. And it's well established. But there are many, many opportunities to embed experiences of the workplace and encounters with employers across a whole school offer and in a very progressive way, from year seven all the way through to year 13. To enable young people to really layer and layer and layer experiences with employers and industry all the way through. And some of those are much more achievable than the logistical challenge of taking 200 young people in a in a year group out for a week's work experience overall. And also those opportunities will present themselves all the way through an academic year, not just in one week's window in the course of a year. So we are really urging school leaders to think hard about their models of experiences of the workplace.
Ryan Gibson  24:44  The benchmark is carefully titled 'experiences of workplaces', and that's to allow that deliberate flexibility experiences of workplaces are absolutely crucial, but there are many different models. Thinking about the purpose of the experiences and how they're set and sequenced within a progressive programme and approach is absolutely crucial. And that's what we've seen when we've engaged with both employers, schools. And when we spoken to lots of young people as well.
Katy Tibbles  25:16  From our kind of on the ground perspective of how we are actually making that happen, because I think sometimes, for leaders in schools, they can think it's a very big challenge to meet that benchmark. And it can be quite overwhelming. And they think it's going to be complicated. But actually, there are some really easy solutions. So, so we do do work experience all of our year 10s, and twelves, in all of our schools go out and do work experience. But in addition to that we might do for example, you know, take the Business Studies class to go and visit a workplace just for a couple of hours. Or even more simple than that is right from year seven, when you're doing a trip, build into that trip, the people that you meet to talk about their job. So if you go to a museum, when you're arranging that visit, ask if there is somebody there a curator that has 10 minutes to spare to talk to pupils about what they do in that setting. Because every single time you take children out of school, the chances are, you're going to some kind of workplace. So there are so many opportunities there to hear from all of these different people. And actually, it's just incorporated in what you're already doing. It doesn't have to be an arduous activity.
Ian Tustian  26:39  And absolutely Katy that extends to pupils with special educational needs as well. In some of the the evidence that we collected as part of the review, we came across schools, for instance, running specific career sessions for pupils with SEND to focus on things like life skills, managing home and travel training. And in one school, we came across an instance where pupils were actually given a fake bank account and credit card and had to play the role in terms of visiting the bank. So it's that preparedness in terms of the range of careers and sort of workplace opportunities are there beyond school.
Nicola Hall  27:08  Probably helpful at this point, also to mention a tool that's available to careers leaders and school leaders, which is called the future skills questionnaire, future skills questionnaire is available at key stage three, key stage four key stage five, and there is also a special educational needs version of the questionnaire. And what that helps education leaders to do is measure the effectiveness of their careers programme through the voice of their young people. So essentially, the questionnaire measures careers readiness in young people. So an education leader is able to use that with their cohorts all the way through from year seven, to see the growth in their development, all the way through their school journey and their careers learning journey as it progresses through the school itself. What it helps you to do very, very quickly, is identify gaps in your careers programme and provision through the eyes of the young people that you're delivering it to. And and I think actually, from my perspective, as a school leader, it's an absolute game changer in terms of being able to listen to your young people at scale in your institution, and really make adjustments to the strategy to make sure that it's responsive to the young people within your cohort.
Mark Leech  28:26  course, those are those academic pathways are have changed are changing. Paul, I mean, I don't know if you want to talk a bit about T levels. We've we've looked separately in a separate study at the introduction of of T levels. And I think we've had some positive things to say but recognise that there were perhaps some some early early issues, some teething problems in the introduction of T levels. How do you see that playing out in the careers work?
Paul Joyce  28:54  Yeah, thanks, Mark. And I think the conversation has come around to the crux of the matter, really. And that is the focus on the quality of the careers programme for the individual for the cohort. So you mentioned T levels Mark, and there's a lot of change in the technical and vocational, post 16 landscape, and we certainly found on T levels. And as Ian has already said, we found also on the career survey, where knowledge and understanding of technical and vocational routes, particularly T levels, is a little bit thin on the ground at the moment, perhaps not surprising. They are relatively new. But certainly a key job for careers leaders, careers advisors, is to ensure the knowledge of those full range of options post 16 and post 18 to ensure that children and young people are getting the right information and are getting the right encounters, the right experience. To make those choices, some will have a very clear idea of what they want to do and what path to go on. Others are going to need more help.
Ryan Gibson  29:03  At Gatsby, we're thinking about the next 10 years of good career guidance and what would potentially lead to even greater impact on outcomes for young people. And of course, careers advice is is absolutely crucial, that role of personal guidance, benchmark eight in particular. And at Gatsby, we're really pleased to be working with the CDI, the Career Development Institute on a project to build career advisor awareness of the technical options that exist, so that they have got an up to date understanding of those options
Paul Joyce  30:53  As qualifications change, as the landscape changes, absolutely vital that careers advisors are, are in front of the curve there really, so they know what the landscape looks like. They're equipped to provide that essential information, advice and guidance that our children young people are going to need.
Ian Tustian  31:15  Absolutely. And building on what you've said, Paul, and what Ryan said, through this through the work that we did, as part of this review, we did see that pupils' awareness and understanding of the technical and vocational pathways varying across schools. About half of the schools, pupils said they didn't really understand the technical pathways well enough, or the inspector noted that they weren't able to demonstrate a real detailed knowledge of them. And again, that's not because, the review certainly didn't find that the schools were sort of shovelling, if you like, pupils into square pegs into round holes in effect in terms of pathways, but it came back to that strategic planning, that strategic understanding across school settings, and within careers advice to ensure that that knowledge was at hand so it could be shared, so that pupils were able to make those clear individual choices that were that were best suited to their needs.
Paul Joyce  32:01  The provider access legislation, the so called Baker Clause,  the key thing that inspectors look at on inspection. But you know that the most important thing is making sure that the careers, leaders, careers advisors themselves, have a really clear understanding about what those options are for the young people that they are advising,
Nicola Hall  32:26  it's really important that all young people get this information. I think, you know, historically, we may have seen some selection around which young people are accessing what types of information about different types of provision. But obviously, we have a moral responsibility to make sure that every young person has a full suite of information to enable them to make those really well informed choices overall,
Ian Tustian  32:51  Some schools, the fact that key stage four options can actually create a barrier to pupil's future pathways and future possible career avenues. The importance of effective careers advice, helping people see beyond their immediate next step, seeing their next step. Next step in effect, you know, if young people are thinking about choosing their degree course, for instance, what does that mean to them post 21. But especially around key stage four options, what does that mean for me? How does that limit? Or actually how does that create further opportunity for me, post 16 post 18, post 21.
Katy Tibbles  33:24  Our careers programme starts in year seven. And that is incredibly important to us it is front loaded, because they need a whole core foundation of knowledge and skills before they reach those key decision making times in their lives. So for us, we start in year seven, and we start talking about pathways and options. And it's not about them making a choice at that stage is just making them aware that there are different pathways. All of our year nines take part in a workshop. It's called what happens next. And we do exactly what you have said Ian, we talk about not just the next step, but the step after that. And even the step after that, because particularly for those young people that do have a career goal in mind that are very focused and they have a dream. They need to know that the choices they make at 14 affect the choices they can make at 16 which then affect the choices they can make at 18. 
Mark Leech  34:26  So thank you to all of you for joining today Paul, Nicola, Ian, Ryan and Katy. I hope you enjoyed listening and you will join us again on the next edition of Ofsted Talks, which you can find wherever you get your podcasts.

Best start in life part 2: Ofsted’s early years research review series

In this episode, Shreena Kotecha (Head of Strategy) talks to Lee Owston (Deputy Director, Schools and Early Education) and Wendy Ratcliff (Principal Officer, Early Education) about the second part of our early years research review series.
Wendy and Lee explain how this report builds on the first part of the series and share what the next report will focus on.
Transcript
Shreena Kotecha 
Hi everyone, welcome to this edition of the Ofsted Podcast. Today we're going to be talking about the Best start in life part two research review. And today I've got with me Lee Owston and Wendy Ratcliff, who both work on early years in Ofsted. I'm gonna start by asking, this report obviously builds on part one that we published late last year. Why is it so important that we're continuing to focus on education?
Lee Owston
Yeah, hi Shreena. Good, to talk to you again. It's absolutely vital that we have a focus on early education at Ofsted. It's obviously reflected in one of our strategic priorities, which is about the importance of all children getting that best start in life. Because we know that whether children have a good early education or whether they have a poor one, those experiences will live on and they will affect how they achieve in later schooling and actually in their life generally. And that's why I'm sure lots of people listening will have heard me say a lot, a child's early education lasts a lifetime. So we need to make sure that what we do in Ofsted, and in the sector as a whole is grounded in the very best evidence of what works. And this report is part of the series, so it's part two, and it's what we're trying to achieve, by really setting out what we believe the best evidence looks like.
Shreena Kotecha 
Brilliant. Wendy did you want to come in as well?
Wendy Ratcliff
Yeah, absolutely and thank you for asking me to join you today. Just building on from what Lee said, very much the work with our youngest children is so important. This report, we hope it's going to be really helpful for practitioners and for those who are actually working with the youngest children day in day out.
Shreena Kotecha 
Lee, can you tell us a bit about what the key findings from this report are?
Lee Owston
Yeah, there's hopefully lots in there and I think what's really important is that there should be no surprises. Much of the content will be very familiar to those working in early years settings. So just some of the things to highlight in the time that we have, communication and language we know is such a fundamental aspect of every child's thinking and learning and the rate of their development in this particular area depends absolutely on their interactions with adults.
Actually, something that did surprise me in looking through the research and kind of pulling it together with the team was that more talkative, confident children actually receive more interactions and time with adults than the less confident, less communicative children. Which, to me is kind of counterintuitive, isn't it? But now that we have that, in our research, it's set out, I think it just makes everybody aware that we need to focus, particularly in terms of interactions, on those children that aren't necessarily going to come up and ask for our attention, those children that aren't going to be the ones that want to take us by the hand and lead us to the interesting things that they've spotted around the setting. So, I think if we don't address the fact that those children who are less confident in their communication and language have less of the knowledge and skill to be able to do that, then obviously, we're just going to cause those gaps, particularly for disadvantaged children and particularly for boys, to widen even further.
And, in terms of personal social and emotional development, we know that that underpins children's early learning and emotional well being. We know that those warm positive relationships with adults really help children to understand and manage their emotions. And I think just through those two elements alone, and  just those kind of snippets that I've managed to share, the fact that when we are talking about the prime areas of learning, which is the focus of part two of our research series, they are so interrelated. There are elements of communication and language that influence other areas. And I think, while lots of us will have appreciated that already, because they're the prime areas of learning for a reason, actually, it doesn't harm and it doesn't hurt to reiterate that there is a mountain and there's a raft of evidence that supports us.
Wendy Ratcliff
I think also, you've mentioned communication and language there Lee as well  personal social and emotional development, but let's not forget about physical development as well and thinking about children needing to be physically active. Physical development, it's central to children's health and their and fitness providing those important foundations for later in life. And practitioners play such an important role in encouraging those less active children to move more and teach movement skills such as balancing and jumping. And I think, you know, when we think of three and a half year olds who are in settings now, those are children who were born at the beginning of those first lockdowns and missed out on some of that physical activity. 
Lee Owston
Yeah. Great reminders about that. And, you know, we hear a lot don't we about communication and language and we've actually as an organisation had a particular emphasis on communication and language over the last eight months or so. But, let's not forget physical development and let's not forget personal social and emotional development as well.
And, just to pick up on what I was kind of sharing earlier, yes the prime areas are of course interlinked. And just to give you a sense of what we mean by that, we know that if you have more developed communication and language, then that's associated with better emotional well being because you can communicate your feelings. And actually children who are more physically active in the early years are better at regulating their emotions and tend to then do better across primary school particularly.
So, I think they're all of value aren't they as individual areas of learning - communication and language, physical development, personal social and emotional development. But actually, the benefit is how they all interrelate and interact, in terms of providing that really firm grounding that will allow children to learn and develop so that they can have those successful early years experiences, but also go on and achieve well across school, and obviously into their later life.
Shreena Kotecha 
Well, this is all making me feel a lot better about my four year old who doesn't stop moving or talking. Something that is mentioned quite a lot, which Lee you've talked about a little bit, is the importance of high quality interactions. And I just wondered, Wendy or Lee if you could expand on what you would want practitioners to take away from this bit of report?
Wendy Ratcliff
Yeah, I think one of the things there, the importance of those high quality interactions it is threaded throughout this report and it comes through loud and clear. And it's because those frequent, high quality interactions between children and adults, they play such a fundamental role in building the knowledge and skills that children need.
And thinking about what practitioners and adults can take from this, we know that those high quality interactions are more likely to take place when adults notice what children know and can do and they respond accordingly. And when adults know the curriculum in advance, so they know what it is that they want their children to be able to do during their time in that particular setting. 
Lee Owston
Yeah and can I just add, I think it's important that we keep acknowledging that this is what's important for all children. Do all children experience enough planned and incidental interactions with adults to learn what they need? We know, for example, some babies and young children will need more targeted time and attention than others. And, as I said earlier, you know, it's really easy, isn't it to talk to the chatty children? But actually, what about deliberate interactions with those that have less development and skill in terms of communication and language, and they're, they're just as important. And I think I mentioned earlier, because we particularly know that the gaps are wider for disadvantaged children in communication and language, and particularly boys.
Wendy Ratcliff
It is definitely easier to chat to those chatty children. They're the ones who are always keen and eager to come up and talk, because they've had lots of practice at it.
Shreena Kotecha
Brilliant. And expanding that just a little bit further, is there anything other than what you've talked about that you would like early years practitioners to take from this research?
Lee Owston
There's lots of key messages in there for practitioners and we've tried really hard, even though this is a research report, to ensure that the messages we give are really practical. They're really easy to implement and digest so that people who pick up the report can take bits of it into their into their practice the very next day, if that's what they wish.
That means we would encourage everybody to try and dive into the report and have a look, we hope that by seeing some of these important messages that it'll help alleviate some of the worry that providers have, particularly about Ofsted. You know, what might inspectors want to see when they inspect you. And we want to be clear that if you're doing what is right for your children, because you have the unique position of knowing your children better than any inspector who is essentially a stranger to your setting on a particular day, then if you're doing what you know is right for your children, those in front of you today, then essentially, you can plan for what what you know, they do know, and what you know, they don't know, and ensure that they get the best possible curriculum and experiences.
And ultimately, that's what inspection is about, trying to understand why you do what you do and whether that's making a difference to the children's learning and development that you intended. And while that's kind of boiling inspection, down to two questions to two sentences there, that is the crux of what inspectors do when they visit you as part of an inspection. So why do you do what you do? And is it making a difference to the children's learning and development that you intended? And we've got, as I'm sure you all know, we've got various ways of doing that on inspection, whether that's a learning walk, conversations, but essentially it's those two things that we try to get underneath.
Wendy Ratcliff
Absolutely, and you know, we really do want people to have the confidence to do what they do every day and don't do anything different just because the inspector calls. And I think the other thing, thinking about this report in particular, is that there's some key messages for each of those prime areas as well that I think those working with our youngest children would find useful really. And I think the other thing we do know, of course, is that the decisions that managers and leaders take are important. And by prioritising the prime areas in their curriculum thinking, and allocating sufficient time and resources, they can make sure children, all children, get off to that best start in their early education.
Shreena Kotecha
Brilliant. And finally, I understand this is part of a trilogy, this is part two of a trilogy, and we've got the last last part to come, can you give us a bit of a sneak preview as to what part three will focus on?
Wendy Ratcliff
We've been really clear about what part three will look at and that will conclude this research series for those working with the youngest children. So that's birth to four, so pre-reception children. And it's going to build on part one and two, but the focus will be on the four specific areas of learning.
Lee Owston
Absolutely. And I think just to add to that as a package as a whole, once we have part three published, so parts one, two, and three, is essentially about a broad curriculum which is well thought out, makes sure that all staff make the most of those planned and incidental interactions, and essentially ensures that we think about both the prime and the specific areas of learning.
And to leave people just with another phrase in which they can think about this, again, something I say all the time, ultimately we want all children to experience a curriculum by design, not by chance. And that means we want staff to be thinking through these decisions that they're making. In terms of what it is they do and don't do in terms of all children and particularly those that we know have gaps that either through the pandemic or just in terms of  individual children and what they do and don't understand yet. We want staff to be able to use that knowledge to ensure that all children get a curriculum that they have designed, not one that's just just by chance. Watch out for part three. We do hope that will be published certainly in the in the next few months.
Shreena Kotecha
Brilliant, thank you very much Lee and Wendy, it's been really nice to talk to you. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and look our for the next episode. 
 
 
 
 

Ofsted’s new subject reports: geography, PE and music

Ofsted has published three new subject reports evaluating the common strengths and weaknesses of different subjects in a sample of schools. The new reports cover geography, PE and music.
We talked to the leads for each report to get a quick preview of what they found and what teachers can take away from each report.
Transcript
Shreena Kotecha 
Hi, I'm Shreena Kotecha, Ofsted's head of strategy. This week we're talking about our subject reports.
 
The reports evaluate the common strengths and weaknesses of different subjects in a sample of schools that we've inspected. They build on our research reviews, which identified factors that lead to high quality curriculums and each of the national curriculum subjects. We've already published reports on science, maths and history. And last week on geography, PE and music.
 
You can find all of our reports on our website or by searching 'Ofsted subject reports.' And just to pique your interest in these, I've spoken to leads for each of the new reports to get a preview of what they found.
 
First up, is Mark Enser who is Ofsted subject lead for geography. Mark, what did you find in this new report?
 
Mark Enser 
I think one of the most important messages is just how much of an improvement there has been in recent years. When you look back at the report in 2011, the previous subject report, you can see that geography wasn't in a good state, across the country. It pointed out that, in too many schools, geography had been removed completely. Children weren't getting a geography education. And even when there were lessons that were called geography, the geography content had often been removed and replaced with more generic competencies.
 
But what we see in the report now, is that geography is very much back, it's alive and kicking. And much more thought is being given to what children should learn. So I think that's a really key message.
 
But there's also some really important messages on where we need to go next. We know particularly in primary schools, that there's been a lot of work on progression within a topic. So pupils learning more say about a topic on rivers, and the knowledge on rivers is built in a sequential and meaningful way towards an endpoint. But once they've finished studying that topic, they never come back to that body of knowledge. It just sits in isolation, they're not using it, they're not building on it in the future.
 
And then when we look at secondary schools, we find a similar problem at Key Stage 4, less so at Key Stage 3, but at Key Stage 4, the exam specifications have often become a de facto curriculum. So one of our main messages not just for people in schools, but for policy makers, for our subject associations and others, is that we really need to think carefully about how we turn an exam specification which prescribes content into a curriculum, which orders it in a logical, meaningful way that teaches pupils about the geography that sits behind that content. Simply working through an exam specification is not the same as teaching our subject and recognising the potential that our subject has.
 
Shreena Kotecha 
And what messages would you like geography teachers to take away from the report? What can they take back to the classroom?
 
Mark Enser 
There's a number of things that I'd really like teachers to take back. We've subtitled the report, 'getting our bearings.' And I think that's the first thing that I'd like teachers to take away is that it's a moment to pause, to look at where we've come from. And then to think about where we want to go next, as a subject community. It's an invitation to have those conversations and to have those discussions.
 
A couple of areas that I think a lot of work could be done is around skills, geographical skills, the body of knowledge about how we do geography. And one thing we see in the subject report is that's not often taught well. There's been a lot of curriculum thinking about the more substantive knowledge, about those different geographical concepts, and so on. And people thinking about how they want to teach that content in a logical way.
 
But not when it comes to geographical skills. They're not considering when to introduce those skills and how there should be progression over the years in them, and even less so when it comes to field work. There were very few schools in which there's a curriculum for developing field work. For how are pupils going to get better at carrying out field work over time? What pupils are getting are a number of individual experiences where they go out of school and experience some field work, but no sense of a sequence that's going to lead to them getting better.
 
Another thing that I think teachers can take away is around how places are used in geography. Quite often, when we talked to pupils, we found that they had a very fragmented knowledge of the places they'd studied. But they could remember isolated facts, little bits and pieces, but they couldn't use them in any meaningful sense. They couldn't tell you how those places had changed, or why they had changed or why they were the way that they were. They could just remember a rundown of some key information. They couldn't use them to do geography.
 
And when you look at the curriculum in the schools where pupils were struggling, what you see is they're being taught in a very fragmented way. They're doing a topic on say, a named country but with no particular intent behind it, of what that country is being used to demonstrate or to show. Which geographical themes or processes are being shown through the study of that place? Which geographical questions they want pupils to be able to answer about those places? It just becomes little more than a fact file.
 
So I think there's something there. When are they teaching certain places? When are pupils returning to those places? How are they layering up knowledge about those places? And what questions are they going to answer about those places?
 
Shreena Kotecha 
Thanks Mark, very interesting, and lots to think about.
 
Next up, we have Hanna Miller, who's our subject lead for physical education. Hanna, what did you find?
 
Hanna Miller 
Just before I talk about the main findings, I just want to say a really big thank you to all of the schools who really welcomed us into conduct the research visit.
 
I think in terms of the key areas of strength, the extra curricular programmes that were in place were really broad and ambitious, and that provided opportunities for lots of pupils to develop what they were being taught in lessons.
 
I think another real key strength was in secondary schools that we visited, where qualification PE was taught at Key Stage 4, or 5, or both. Most schools had thought really carefully about what to teach and when, and why. And many of those decisions were really quite carefully informed by some really positive work with the qualification specifications, and using them to inform the structure of the curriculum. And in all of the qualification lessons that we visited, there were strong teacher subject expertise.
 
There was some variability across the schools as well. So obviously, a couple of those key strengths were coming through. But there were also some areas of development that leaders had spoken to us about as well. And what was really clear in a lot of those schools was that leaders really wanted to provide a range of sports and physical activities for pupils through the PE curriculum. But what we found in some cases was, although the curriculum was incredibly broad, there were times when it didn't match the ambition of the national curriculum.
 
And there were also times when the curriculum was very tight, it had a lot packed into it. And I think assessment was also an area that schools spoke to us about. And leaders often explained that it was an area that they wanted to work a bit more on, to really ensure that the methods that they were using to assess pupils were effective, and how they use that information that they gathered to inform their next steps as well was really effective.
 
And I think just to kind of round that off, what was particularly interesting was some of the barriers that leaders had shared with us and they'd identified. Particularly around COVID-19, and the impacts that that had had on the PE curriculum when returning from partial closures, but also the implications of some of that now. But also some, some real positives, were coming out around building links with other schools and building local links within the community as well. So really positive messages coming through as well.
 
Shreena Kotecha 
And is there anything in particular you think PE teachers should take away? What are the key messages for them?
 
Hanna Miller 
Yeah, I think these will link really closely to what I'd said about the areas that leaders had identified themselves, things that they wanted to improve in schools. And obviously, what we'd found on the visits as well.
 
One of the first things is around breadth and depth. In PE that's always been a really interesting debate. And there isn't necessarily a magic number of how many sports and physical activities could or should be within a curriculum.
 
But I think what is really, really important to carefully consider is, if all pupils have enough time for the high quality instruction, practice and feedback that is absolutely needed to get better. For some pupils, that might be the first time that they're exposed to some of that content. So really ensuring that there is that time, so that pupils learn the curriculum, not just cover it.
 
And I'd probably say my third thing would really be just that point that PE is for all pupils. So thinking really carefully about lessons, the support that some pupils might require. So, some pupils will have gaps in their prior knowledge. And obviously, the support that they will need to access the curriculum will need to be precise, and it will it will mean meeting them where they are. And that might mean for example, practising and refining some fundamental movement skills. And sometimes that can also be pupils with SEND. Some of those pupils with SEND might need another demonstration, they might need some more practice time, they might need slight adjustments to the task, for example.
 
So those kinds of things are really, really important to think about within lessons. Because although sometimes it can feel like there's an awful amount to get through, there's lots that you want to get through in lessons, it's really ensuring that you're bringing all pupils with you on that journey so that all pupils know, and can do more in PE.
 
And I think that's also where assessment is incredibly important. Really identifying what pupils know, and can do, and what they don't yet know or cannot yet do. And then using that information to really guide those decisions about what's taught next, and why that's taught next.
 
Shreena Kotecha 
Thanks so much Hanna really useful.
 
Finally, let's hear from Chris Stevens, who is the lead for music report. Chris, what can you tell us about the report?
 
Christopher Stevens 
So this report highlights really the significant variation in the quality of music education in the schools that we visited. We visited 50 in total.
 
Nonetheless, since the time of our previous subject report which was in 2012, many school leaders and particularly in primary schools have taken really important steps to give music and more prominent place on the taught curriculum. And many pupils now have regular opportunities to learn music.
 
However, despite the significant improvement, several of the concerns that we raised in that report in 2012 remain. Particularly around Key Stage 3 music, where a proportion of the schools we visited really didn't give pupils enough time to learn the curriculum as they'd set out. And that meant in some cases, pupils were not well prepared for the next stages of their learning, or if they wanted to go on for further musical study.
 
And I suppose concerningly in some schools, pupils were only well placed to continue their musical education and achieve well after Key Stage 3, if they have access to paid instrumental or vocal lessons. And there is a clear divide between children and young people whose families can afford to pay for music tuition, and those who come from lower socio-economic backgrounds. So that inequality of opportunity, which we highlighted in our previous report still persists.
 
Shreena Kotecha 
And is there anything that you would like music teachers to take back to help their students?
 
Christopher Stevens 
Well, I think the schools we visited wanted pupils, it was quite evident, to develop a real love and passion for the subject.
 
But our evidence shows that music was stronger and pupils achieved more in those schools where leaders had gone beyond those broad curriculum aims of developing a love and passion. Leaders had in these schools identified specific endpoints and the building blocks of knowledge and skills they wanted pupils to achieve at various points throughout the curriculum.
 
I suppose in a way what these leaders had done is they asked themselves the question, 'what can pupils realistically learn, rather than just encounter in the time available?' They'd crucially considered ambition in terms of pupils' musical development, rather than the range of musical opportunities on offer.
 
So, one of the things I'd be saying to teachers and to leaders is to be really clear about what it is precisely you want pupils to do as a result of your curriculum. And also, to make sure that pupils get regular and repeated opportunities to be able to practice that knowledge and those skills in the time available.
 
Shreena Kotecha 
Fascinating. Thank you very much, Chris. And thanks again to Mark and Hannah.
 
There's a lot to digest there and 3 fascinating new reports to read. Do look out for them on the website and Ofsted's social media or by searching 'Ofsted subject reports.'
 
That's all we have time for on this short episode of Ofsted Talks. Remember to subscribe or follow us wherever you get your podcasts.
 
Thanks for listening.

Raising standards in supported accommodation

In this episode, Mark Leech (Acting Director, Strategy and Engagement) talks to Matthew Brazier (Project Director, Supported Accommodation) and Rachel Holden (Senior HMI, Supported Accommodation) about the development of our plans for regulating and inspecting supported accommodation.Alongside the podcast, you can learn about the following related topics on our YouTube channel:
Notice of inspection for supported accommodation
What makes effective supported accommodation?
Supported accommodation inspection outcomes
We have also published guidance detailing what providers need to know about registering with Ofsted and running or closing a supported accommodation service.
Transcript
Mark Leech 
Hello and welcome to another bite sized episode of Ofsted Talks. My name is Mark Leech [Acting Director, Strategy and Engagement]. Today we're going to be talking about supported accommodation. This is accommodation for 16 - 17-year-olds who are in care or who have just left care, and who may need a place to live where they're supported by responsible adults. Despite the need for support and guidance at this stage in their lives we know for many young people this is an uncertain time, and they've sometimes been placed in poor quality accommodation, which is why the Department of Education has asked Ofsted to start regulating the sector and make sure standards are high enough, to help young people feel safe and supported as they make the transition into adult life. Earlier, I spoke to Matthew Brazier, our Project Director for Supported Accommodation and to Rachel Holden, our Senior His Majesty's Inspector for Supported Accommodation about our plans for regulating this sector. We talked about what we think good supported accommodation looks like, what young people have had to say about their needs, and why this new area of our work is so important. So Matthew, hi, I think we should start by talking about the children who are placed in supported accommodation just to get a sense of who we're talking about.Matthew Brazier 
Yeah, of course Mark. We think there's around 7,000 children in care or care leavers aged 16 to 17 in supported accommodation, that's what the data from last year tells us. And they'll have a range of different backgrounds, the needs can really vary, it's really important not to see them as an homogenous group. And when we inspect, we'll be focusing on how providers understand and meet those different needs. But generally speaking, they'll be children who are in care and care leavers who are able to manage an increasing amount of autonomy, or independence in their lives, while they still get the kind of help and protection that all children should expect. And as I say, there's around 7000, we think, which is a not insignificant number, it's pretty similar to the number of children in children's homes. So you can tell from that comparison that it is a large number of children but all with with different needs.Mark LeechThat's really helpful. Thank you. Rachel, in terms of the accommodation itself, obviously, supported accommodation is rather different to children's homes. It's a pretty varied sector. So what sort of thing are we looking at?Rachel Holden 
You're right there Mark, it is very varied. And the regulations split it into four different categories. So the first category is like when you have a spare room in your house, so it's a family home. It's called supported lodgings and they're host families who're hosting a young person. And they share all your other living facilities that you have in your house, your kitchen, and they become part of a family really. So there's that type, then there's more like self contained flats. So like a bedsit or a studio, that type of accommodation. And then there's shared houses. So you might have three or four young people living and sharing the same house, but having, obviously their individual bedrooms. And then there's accommodation, which is a little bit more like a house of multiple occupancies. So it could be that you're living with other people that are maybe age 22-23. They come from a different background than you, they haven't been in care or care leavers. And that's the fourth category that I was speaking about. So even though we split them up within those categories, there's quite a lot of variation, and quite a lot of variation between the housing throughout the country as well. So we've seen a lot of difference in the sector. So I'll just point out the difference between supported accommodation and children's homes. So for children's homes, they're looked after by staffing within the home, they're cared for, they're parented - if you like - by staff in the home, whereas supported accommodation, [they] are supported, and they're supported on their journey to independence. So they may not have staff there 24/7. They may not have staff to handle the time, but actually they know who to contact in an emergency they are supported to proceed into college or an apprenticeship. So there there's lots of different models out there of supported accommodation.Mark Leech
So given that it is such a varied sector, then, I suppose our role is going to be a bit different in terms of the sorts of inspections that we can do. We're going into, as you say, Rachel, really different types of places. Matthew, what are we going to be looking for when we start to inspect from April next year, April '24.Matthew Brazier
Well, we started consulting on a number of things in July, for the way we'll inspect from April and one of those proposals was about the main things that we should expect for children in a strong supported accommodation service. So some of the examples of the criteria that we'd be looking for is that children should feel safe and settled where they live. There should be strong support for their emotional, their physical health, and good help with their education, training and employment. We'd want leaders and managers to have high ambitions, high expectations for children. And fundamentally, the accommodation itself should be of good quality, but it should also meet children's individual needs. So we've set out those criteria that were very broad criteria that will help us develop the final evaluation criteria. And we've based those proposals on lots of discussions that we've had, in the last year or so with commissioners, providers, children's advocacy groups - their views have been really helpful to help us develop those proposals - but most importantly, we've worked really hard to speak to the care-experienced community - care-experienced people who were young and old - we wanted to learn from their lived experience and make sure that the things that we look at when we inspect are going to be the things that are most important to them.Mark Leech
Yeah that's a really important group isn't it? So what have we heard in particular from young people, or as you say, from people who've been through the care system themselves?Matthew Brazier
Yeah, some of the things that are coming out loudly and clearly from them is about feeling safe, fundamentally. They agree that the support should match their individual needs. So wherever they live, that support is tailored to them as individuals, but a common theme was about how they should be allowed to move towards increased independence at a pace that suits them. And it's important to remember these are children and that we shouldn't expect them to be fully independent at the age of 16, or 17. This is about a path towards adulthood and a path towards independence. So the pace that they move out towards that independence is going to vary and the support they get should reflect that. We are quite clear that supported accommodation should not mean an absence of care. And children were particularly clear that they want the opportunity to have the growing independence as they get older. But they also want safety nets, they want to have financial security - so they're not really worried about the financial or money issues unnecessarily. They want the support of adults who care for them and who they can trust. But they also want to be able to enjoy the kinds of things that all children and all young people should expect and deserve. So their insight has been really, really helpful. We think we've got to a point where the proposals that we'll make for what we look at on inspection will reflect a consensus. It'll strongly reflect children's views, it will take into account the views of professionals and other interested parties. But we've also looked at research - the available research on supported accommodation - and that's been helpful, too. So we think we'll have an evidence-based inspection framework that will focus on the right things and hopefully be looking at things that, most importantly, children feel that they're the most relevant things for them to make progress and have good experiences.Mark Leech
I mean that sounds that sounds really positive and a big step forward. Because currently this is a bit of a grey area, isn't it, supported accommodation - it's not currently registered, it's not currently inspected. So we need obviously the people who are running this accommodation - the providers of this accommodation - to register with us. What happens if they don't register with us? So how do we stop there being this kind of grey area? And what happens if we're going into some of these providers and finding that they're just not up to scratch? Rachel Holden
Yeah that's a great question. So as we said earlier, this is a new area, and we need providers to register with us by the 28th of October and have that application accepted. After that they will be acting unlawfully, and local authorities won't then be able to place children who are 16-17, who are in care or care leavers with them. So it's really important that providers do get that application in. And when we go out, and if we were to find serious and widespread weaknesses in the provision that they are providing, we have a raft of powers available to us. That could be an issue in a compliance notice on a certain area of service that they need to improve on. Or it could be that we suspend the service straightaway because there are really serious safeguarding issues for children and we think that they might be at an immediate risk of harm. So we would be looking for those children to move out. But on the whole, as we do with children's homes, we work with providers because we realise that children - if they're living there, they're settled a lot of the time - we give providers opportunities to put the issues right. Always bearing in mind that the safeguarding of children comes first and foremost.Mark Leech
It's always a tough balancing act, isn't it, in the areas that we regulate? And people don't always know with Ofsted, we have these two functions. We're an inspectorate - obviously most famously we're the schools inspectorate, but we don't actually regulate schools - we don't have the power to open schools or close schools; that's the Department for Education. But in social care, we do have some of those those harder-edge powers. But as you say, it's often about working with providers to make sure they're meeting the standards because we don't want to disrupt the lives of young people unnecessarily. But we have to always maintain that focus on safety. So thanks for that. I think that clears up a bit on how we're going to work in this new sector. So what are the next steps for us now?Rachel Holden
So the next steps for us now are to issue the inspection framework, which will be coming out early next year. And we are already gearing up to do the pilots of that inspection framework. We'll be going to around nine providers of all different types - and I spoke earlier about the different categories of registration that we have. So we'll be doing a wide range of small, large, supported lodgings, houses of multiple occupancy type provision. And we'll be testing out what's really working obviously for children and young people first and foremost. We'll be liaising with the providers to make sure we're doing the best that we can for them. And we'll be speaking to the inspectors who do those pilots. So by the time we come to start the inspection year in April, next year, we'll be fully up to speed and getting out there and making a start on the inspections.Mark Leech
Fantastic. So it's also a new area of work as well for you two, who've obviously worked for a long time with Ofsted in social care more generally. What drew you to supported accommodation?Matthew Brazier
Well, Mark, my experience as an inspector, and then in policy at Ofsted, and in a previous life in a local authority, I think it means that I know the positive difference that the right kind of help in the right place can make for children, and that - you know - what impact really good provision can have. And I suppose I was drawn to this particularly because I'm convinced that regulation is necessary. I think it can make significant changes and improvements to children's lives. And I think this has been unregulated for such a long time, and there are so many children in this area, I think it's fair to say that there's a consensus across the sector, that regulation is really necessary, notwithstanding the challenges that lie ahead for lots of different parts of the sector. But I think we really can make a difference. I think we can get to a place in April, where we have a framework that focuses on the things that matter. And it's something that everyone can sign up to, and hopefully [it] will shine a light, celebrate good practice, hold poor providers to account, but also drive policy and further improvements as well more widely.Mark Leech
That's great, thank you. And Rachel, how about you?Rachel Holden
So I've been working for Ofsted now for about 10 years, and I started my career in regulation. So I used to regulate children's homes, independent fostering agencies, etc. And I saw the real difference that we can make through regulation to the quality of service for children and young people. And [I] also heard those positive stories that young people spoke with passion about their carers, and what a difference that they had made to them. So after I followed my career through Ofsted, I still take a great deal of interest in regulatory work. So when this opportunity came up to manage the central team, I put my hat in the ring, and it's been a great opportunity to offer providers and children consistency of our approach to our registration, and also be able, as Matthew said, to engage with the sector and to engage with them, to answer that question 'what does good look like?' But I suppose on a more personal note, I've got three girls of various different ages now that keep me really busy. And the oldest two are 16+, and I've seen what support they need at that age. And they need a lot of adult input, guidance, discussions - you name it - so I think it's a really important time in a young person or a child's life to make sure that we're actually there for children and that we guide them and support them to become responsible individuals and adults. So yeah, it's been a bit of both really, so a bit of a work journey and also a personal one, but I like to say I'm really enjoying it.Mark LeechThat's great. Thanks, Rachel. That's really helpful and I think summarises the importance of this area of work for young people just coming to the end of their care experience and going out into the world. So, thank you so much for your time and Matthew for yours as well. Thanks very much for listening. I hope you found it interesting. Do tune in again to the next Ofsted Talks wherever you get your podcasts.
 

Back to school: updates from Ofsted September ’23

As schools return and settle into the new academic year, host Shreena Kotecha talks to Lee Owston, Ofsted’s deputy director of schools and education, about some of the recent changes made to the way Ofsted inspects schools. Shreena also finds out what schools inspectors get up to during the summer break.  For more information read the Ofsted blog or sign up to an Ofsted webinar.
Shreena: Hello, and welcome to a bite size episode of Ofsted talks to mark the start of the new academic year, which I'm very much looking forward to because my youngest starts reception. I'm Shreena Kotecha and I'm head of strategy here at Ofsted. I'm here with Lee Owston, who is Deputy Director of schools and education, and we're going to talk about what we've been up to at Ofsted during the summer, including some of the changes that have been made to the way we inspect and report. So Lee, one of the questions we often get asked is what happens at Ofsted when the schools are closed?
 
Lee Owston
Yeah, hi, Shreena. Good question. It's certainly true that we don't inspect schools during the six week break. But we don't just inspect schools. So you know, our inspection and regulatory work does continue in early years and further education and skills and some of our adults learning provision. But all of our schools HMI have been former leaders in schools. So, myself included, we're certainly used to longer summer breaks. So, many people enjoy some annual leave during the summer. But we don't get all of the time. You know, we don't get all of the six weeks. There are a number of activities that we undertake when we're working, but schools are closed. So, for example, we might look at completed evidence bases, or we might look at reports to try and gather together some information on a particular theme. So, we've recently done something on careers education to try and understand, you know, how much do inspectors get underneath that in their evidence bases do they then report on it. And of course, if we pull all that information together, it really helps me and my teams understand whether we need to, do we need to deliver some training do we need to adjust our handbooks? Do we need to have a focus in terms of quality assurance?  So, there's plenty to keep us busy, even though schools are closed and inspection isn't continuing. But we really do, you know, maximise that time so that we can hit the ground running just as you said, you know the start of a new term, Ofsted's just the same, we try and get as much done as possible so that we can be prepared for what the year ahead brings.
 
Shreena Kotecha: Brilliant. And you mentioned that one of the things you get up to over the summer is adjusting inspection handbooks. Could you tell us a bit more about the changes that have been made the schools inspection handbook.
 
Lee: Yeah, and this is, this is an approach we kind of try and do or take annually. So we try and make as few changes to the inspection handbook as we can. And if we are going to make some changes, we try and do it at this point in the year. So we do it just before the summer, and publish just before everybody goes away on their summer break. So that again, come September, we can implement that new handbook. So we've made a number of updates, actually, for this year, ready for September. And there's probably far too many to list here. But just to give you a kind of flavour of some of the main ones. And actually, before I start, it's important to reassure people that when we do make changes, including this year, they're not fundamentally changing anything about, you know, what we look at, what we evaluate, or how we go about our work. What we're keen to do is try and clarify some of the areas that we know people are less sure about and where we've heard through our engagements that they're just unclear. So we try and review every year and ensure that you know, the messages are as clear as possible. So one of those areas for this year, we've taken a good look at safeguarding in particular, we've tried to reduce some of the duplication. So we recognise that some of our guidance around safeguarding sits in different places and we've tried to pull it all together into the school inspection handbook. So there's one place for all of the important messages. And that means we've also cut down on some of the repetition, we've been clearer in terms of what we mean by an effective safeguarding culture. We've pulled together all of the bits where we try and describe culture, we've put it in one place, we've also provided some more detail on what constitutes ineffective safeguarding practice. And we recognise that we can't write, you know, a long, long list of things because there will always be situations that we can't cover, but we've tried to give, you know, as I said, give a flavour of what can effective safeguarding practice might be to reassure people that it is not only those significant issues that affect the safety of pupils that that would lead us down that ineffective path. We've also provided some additional importance and words on how we judge behaviour and attendance. Again, those two areas are often in conversation when I'm talking to trust CEOs or head teachers or teachers or anybody essentially in education. Those two words keep cropping up, behaviour and attendance, because we know that they remain really kind of live challenges. We know they were tricky during the pandemic, we know they still remain tricky as we move out of that, but again for reassurance, so if I just take attendance as an example. We've tried to reassure people that we're aware that attendance isn't where it once was, you know, lots of schools are finding it really hard to get back to the attendance levels that they had pre pandemic or higher. So we've tried to set out in our handbook that as long as schools are doing all that they can reasonably do to achieve the highest possible attendance, then it shouldn't be an issue on inspection. So we'd expect some understanding of the causes of absence, we'd expect some kind of strategy or plan to address attendance for all pupils, particularly as you would expect persistent or severe absence. And as long as there's some evidence that attendance is moving in the right direction. So it might not be where it once was or higher. But as long as there's strong evidence that it is moving in that direction, because of all of those things that schools have done, then schools leaders shouldn't have any issue in terms of how we might evaluate that on the ground. And then there's a few other little bits and pieces, throughout the handbook, that we've adjusted too. Things about, you know, who can I have sitting alongside me in a meeting. We recognise, some people might need a bit of extra personal, or professional support. And of course, we've also clarified at the end of an inspection leaders can share their inspection outcome provisionally with others in their school, before the final report is published. There are one or two caveats there, you know, we would say that we want to speak to parents, pupils or staff on their own, so that they can kind of talk freely without, without a senior colleague there. And of course, we would also say don't share the outcome with parents until the final report is published. Because, of course, everything goes through a quality assurance process. So that's just a little bit of a flavour of some of the things that we've updated and changed. There are far more. And I would encourage people to, if they haven't already, and they get a chance, just to have a look at that document, which, as I say, was put online, on our gov.uk site just before the summer.
 
Shreena: Brilliant, I was actually just going to ask you, where people can find out a bit more?
 
Lee: Yeah, so all of our main changes, as I said, go on the Ofsted website. That's a gov.uk website, but we're also publishing a range of other things. So obviously, we've got this podcast, which gives a little bit of a flavour of what we've been doing, we hope to have a back to school blog that we can publish, that, I suppose repeats some of the things that you'll have heard here, but also give a little bit more detail about some of those other areas. And of course, we have a regular programme of webinars. Those are directly aimed at people in the sector, everybody's welcome to attend those this term. In particular, we have some sessions looking at in depth changes. So as I've just said, there'll be webinars on our safeguarding changes, there'll be webinars on attendance and behaviour. And we're also going to do more general overview right at the beginning of September, similar to kind of our back to school blog, but just giving you a bit of a heads up in terms of those changes we've made to the inspection handbook. So I think it's fair to say we've got a pretty full and, and varied programme for the year ahead. And actually, lots of our topics are driven by what teachers or leaders tell us they want to hear more about or where they want some further clarification or reassurance. So we're always keen to hear from people if there's something that we could do, whether that's a blog, or whether that's a webinar, because we want everybody to understand inspection as it truly happens. You know, there's lots of myths out there for various reasons. And of course, it's always better to hear about Ofsted from Ofsted than to rely on somebody else. So we intend to keep going with our webinars because we find them a really valuable way of sharing some of the reality of inspection, rather than some of the myths.
 
Shreena: Brilliant, and how can people get in touch to you suggest topics they'd like to have covered?
 
Lee: Yeah, there's, there's a way of communicating with us through the website where you know, there's very many, many of us in the team on social media channels. When we're out and about Don't be frightened coming up and talking to us, you know, I've got a heavy programme of engagements across the autumn and beyond, which means I'm out and about and one of the faces of Ofsted, reassuring people and answering questions, which I think is a really good thing for us to be doing. So again, don't be frightened to come up and approach me. We're always keen to kind of pool together everything that we hear and then choose the topics that people want to hear most about. Whether that's webinars, and all that other types of communication
 
Shreena: I can definitely confirmed to all of our listeners that Lee is not scary and people should definitely feel free to approach him. So I think that's pretty much all we were gonna cover today. So we will put links to the blog and webinars in the description of the page. Thank you for coming along Lee I know it’s your first week back from leave this week. Did you have a good summer break?
 
Lee: I did. I did. Thank you. Yeah. The usual holiday with family, caught up with friends, read plenty of books, not the handbooks I might add, I promise and generally just had time to recharge. And I think that's important for us all, isn't it because I get the same feeling now, as I did when I was back in school, you know it’s that time of the year when you're preparing for the year ahead, end of the summer beginning of autumn. And that still comes with equal amounts of excitement and optimism for what's to come as well as a little bit of anxiety on that first day back because well, whether you're in school or whether you are working for Ofsted none of us can quite predict what might be just around the corner next. So yeah, important to get a good break, which I hope everybody has. And then we're able to put our best foot forward aren't we for whatever challenges come in the academic year ahead.
 
Shreena: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much, Lee. If you enjoyed this episode, and don't want to miss the next one, please don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from.
 

Consultation on post-inspection arrangements and complaints handling

Ofsted has launched a consultation on proposed changes to our post-inspection arrangements and complaints handling, closing on Friday 15 September 2023. Host Shreena Kotecha, Head of Strategy, speaks to our Principal Officer for Inspection Quality and Complaints Administration, Paul Trusselle, about the consultation and proposed changes. 
To respond to the consultation, please visit: https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/changes-to-ofsteds-post-inspection-arrangements-and-complaints-handling-proposals-2023.
 
 
Shreena: Hello and welcome to the first of our more regular bite sized episodes of Ofsted Talks. I'm Shreena Kotecha, Head of Strategy here at Ofsted. These new episodes as the title sort of gives away will give shorter updates on what's happening here at Ofsted, but don't worry if you're one of our keen listeners we’ll still be running the longer deep dive episodes every month. So, if you want to keep up to date with everything we do here Ofsted please don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So, in June, we announced several changes to our inspections and we launched a formal consultation on proposed changes to our post- inspection arrangements and complaints handling. With me today is Paul Trusselle, who is our Principal Officer for Inspection Quality and Complaints Administration, and he's here to talk us through the consultation and the proposed changes. So Paul, could you start by just telling us why the current consultation is happening?
Paul: Hi, Shreena. Yes, no problem at all. As you know, we keep all of our processes under review to make inspections as collaborative and transparent as possible. We last changed our post inspection arrangements and how we handle complaints about our work in 2020. And since then, we've carried out over 50,000 inspections across all of our remits. As such, and building on lots of experience from our current arrangements, we've been reviewing what we do, developing some new possible approaches and piloting some of these on inspections over recent months. These approaches were then formalised into a consultation that was launched in June with us seeking feedback on four key proposals. As these proposals are applicable across all of our inspection work, we're really keen and seeking views from all providers that Ofsted inspects and regulates across early years, schools, further education skills and also social care.
Shreena: Brilliant, Paul. You mentioned that the consultation has got four proposals. Can you tell us what those are?
Paul: Yeah, sure. It's important for us to have a right first time approach to inspection where we can consider and resolve any issues during the inspection process wherever possible. We also want providers to be able to seek a review of the inspection findings and for them to feel confident that any challenge will be considered fairly and thoroughly, including a chance for them to contribute to the process. Importantly, any process must also be deliverable within the resource and scope of Ofsted. But broadly, we've got four proposals, two of which link more closely to the inspection process and two link to how we handle complaints about any activities that we do.
Shreena: Would you mind starting with the two proposals that relate to the inspection process?
Paul: Yeah, our first new proposal is about enhancing professional dialogue during inspections, as we know that effective communication is key to successful inspections. Our inspection handbooks set out how inspectors will engage positively and professionally with providers and inspectors already routinely check with providers during an inspection whether they have any issues. But we propose to formalise this approach by asking inspectors to check with providers at a few specific stages of the visit and make a record of this. We'd need to tailor this accordingly to the type of inspection that we do. However, the principle of trying to address any issues before the end of the inspection visit is applicable about our work. We've been piloting this approach in some of our early years, schools and social care inspections in recent months and feedback from providers on this has been really positive, with providers commenting that they valued this further focus on professional dialogue throughout the inspection visit. Our second proposal seeks to introduce a new opportunity for providers to contact Ofsted the day after an inspection visit if they've any unresolved concerns. We know that providers will reflect afterwards and might think of important points they want to raise. This might be to clarify what happens next and when they will receive their inspection report, to query an aspect of the inspection process and what was found, or perhaps to highlight something that they feel was not fully considered during the visit. As such, instead of the provider having to wait until they get their draft report to submit any comments to us, we propose to introduce a new opportunity for providers to call Ofsted the day after the end of the visit to discuss any unresolved concerns. Calls will be directed to inspectors separate to the inspection in question who will discuss any issues with the provider so they can be resolved at the earliest opportunity. Again, we've been piloting this in some of our early years, schools and social care inspections in recent months. The number of calls to Ofsted has been quite low, helpfully demonstrating that inspectors do deal with most queries during the inspection itself. However, providers who have contacted Ofsted the day after an inspection have reported that they found this really helpful, welcoming the chance to speak to an inspector to discuss the queries that they've had. We've also had some feedback from providers that didn't call us but liked knowing that they could have done so if they needed to.
Shreena: Brilliant. Could you talk about the third and fourth proposals for after the inspections?
Paul: Sure. The third proposal is linked to our processes for finalising inspection reports and considering any formal complaint or challenge before the report is finalised and published on our website. As we show in our published annual report and accounts document, the vast majority of our inspections do not lead to a formal complaint from providers and these reports are published promptly. We often receive requests from providers for the report to be published as soon as possible, so they can celebrate and share the positive outcomes of their inspection. However, we know that in some cases providers want to formally challenge the inspection findings, and we'll continue to consider these complaints thoroughly before we finalise and publish their report. We're proposing two new routes that providers can follow when they get their draft report. First, if a provider wants to highlight minor points of clarity or factual accuracy, we will consider these promptly and finalise the inspection report. We expect the vast majority of providers to follow this route, allowing reports to be published quickly for the benefit of providers, parents and other service users. However, if providers choose this route, they’ll not normally have an opportunity later to raise a formal complaint or challenge. Alternatively, if a provider wants to seek a review of their inspection findings and judgments, they can submit a formal complaint. As now, if a complaint is submitted, it'd be investigated by a member of Ofsted staff independent of the inspection. We also propose that this investigation in future includes a telephone call to the provider to explore their concerns fully and resolve issues quickly. An investigation could result in no changes to the report, changes to the report text or perhaps the grades awarded, or the inspection being deemed to be incomplete and confirmation that there'll be a further visit to gather additional evidence. We also intend to revise complaints outcome letters to be clearer for providers about the reasons for the decisions we've made. Taken together, we feel that these proposals - the two on inspection and the one about the post inspection approaches - if agreed, will help us achieve that right first time approach to inspections that we want and will strengthen current arrangements on handling complaints about our work. Our fourth proposal is to remove the current internal review step in our complaints process. This step is a review, by Ofsted, on how we handled the original complaint and is not a reinvestigation of the issues raised. Also under our current process, this step must be completed before a complainant can contact the independent adjudicator, known as ICASO, to ask for an independent review of how their complaint was handled. To help reduce the burden on providers, we propose that if complainants are concerned that we have not followed our complaints handling process correctly, they can raise it directly with ICASO. Instead of the current escalated levels of review, Ofsted will therefore consider any formal complaint only once and thoroughly. We also propose to introduce period reviews of how we handle complaints about inspection and to do this, we'll take a sample of closed cases and submit them to a panel of external reviewers, including representatives from the sectors that we inspect. The panel can provide challenge and transparency on how we've handled complaints about our work that will then feed into future improvements. So those are the four proposals.
Shreena: How can people respond to this consultation and when is the deadline?
Paul: All the details of the consultation are available on the Ofsted website, including the link to the online form. We’ve already had more responses than we did when we last consulted on post-inspection arrangements in 2020. Also, responses so far across all inspection remits have provided broad support for all of the proposals. We’re really keen to receive as many responses as possible. And it's for that reason that the consultation period is much much longer than in 2020. We started in mid-June, well before the summer break, and mindful of summer closures for some providers, the consultation is remaining open until Friday the 15th of September, a few weeks into the new academic year. So, plenty of time for people to submit a response if they'd like to do so.
Shreena: Thanks, Paul. It's really good news that we've had so many responses so far. Do you know when we will respond to the consultation and when you’ll have reviewed all the responses?
Paul: With the consultation closing on the 15th of September, we'll be reviewing all of the responses received well into the autumn, including all of the free text comments that are submitted through to us. This feedback will help form our decisions on the new processes and how we handle complaints about our work going forward. In due course, as we did in 2020, we will publish a report on our website with the outcome of the consultation, including setting out next steps that we’ll be taking as a result.
Shreena: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Paul. So just to remind our listeners the closing date for the consultation is Friday the 15th of September. We will put a link to the consultation in the summary of this podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and don't want to miss the next one, please subscribe and leave us a rating wherever you get your podcasts.

The best start in life: early years and Ofsted’s strategy

One of Ofsted's key strategic priorities acknowledges the relationship between early childhood experiences and a range of life outcomes, from educational success to well-being and good health. Read more here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ofsted-strategy-2022-to-2027
 
Shreena
I'm Shreena Kotecha, welcome everyone to the Ofsted podcast. This time we're talking about the best start in life. Just start with a few introductions first introduction is the new co host on the podcast Mark Leech, who is acting director strategy and engagement.
 
Mark Leech
Hello, I'm stepping into Chris Jones's shoes. And part of that is to join the podcast, which is very exciting. And we have two special guests from outside Ofsted. We have Molly Devlin, who is headteacher at ARK Start in West London.
 
Molly Devlin
Hi, thank you for having me today. I'm really excited to join you.
 
Shreena
And we have Helen Donohoe who is Chief Executive of PACEY, which stands for the professional association for childcare and early years.
 
Helen Donohoe
Hi, everyone, like Molly, I'm really delighted to be doing this.
 
Shreena
Last but not least, we have our very own Lee Owston who is Deputy Director for schools and early education. I mean, it's great topic for today, because the best start in life is one of our strategic priorities and Lee and I have had lots of lovely chats about it. Lee do you want to say a quick hello?
 
Lee Owston
Hello, everyone. Good to be here. Good to have a conversation with Helen and Molly as well.
 
Shreena
Shall we start with like a really sort of easy question in a way? Which is why do we think it's so important for children to have a high quality early education? Molly, do you want to start because you'd nodded enthusiastically?
 
Molly
I'm absolutely enthusiastic about this. I think there's no lack of evidence and research that early education is one of the most important things for children to have, so that they have the opportunity to thrive. But more than that, it's not just about education, right? It's about being able to fully participate in our democratic society. And it starts with our youngest children, actually, what we know is that it starts in the womb. And that early years is not the only factor in ensuring that children have the best start in life. But it is the factor that Helen and I have clearly chosen to be incredibly passionate about and dedicate our lives to.
 
Helen
Yeah, I mean, I fully endorse what Molly said, it's a universal understanding that the earlier we can, we can start with the next generation, the better. And as Molly said, it's not just about linguistics, or numeracy or those important things we need, but it's about the person, that that child and eventually that young person will become, and allowing them to make the get the best out of their life and and the best contribution to their communities. It's also about safety. Sometimes we forget, you know, I think in an ideal scenario, every child would get along to their kind of childcare, early education setting of choice and have a brilliant, fulfilled, experience. But sometimes it's it's around kind of let's see the children, let's let's be aware of the children in our communities and make sure we're keeping them safe as well.
 
Mark
I think we early on, we've kind of touched on something that has always interested me, when I was at nursery, way back in the 1970s, we called it play school. And that was a really interesting formulation of of words, right? Because it cuts to a debate that I think runs through early years and still runs through early years in the balance between children being taught children being educated and children playing and exploring their surroundings and sort of learning as they they go. And I just wanted to touch on that. Because I think it's interesting, obviously, for people who work in the sector, I think it's also something that parents think about when they're when they're looking at nurseries for their kids. What what what sort of environments is it going to be? How much are they going to learn and develop? And what sort of play experiences they're going to have? I wonder whether Helen and Molly, you wanted to talk a bit about a bit about that.
 
Molly
I think there's quite a controversial debate around sort of explicit facilitated teaching, and what is play and I think, really, they're so intertwined, that you can't pull them apart in any thoughtful way. Because what we know is that to use resources, well, thoughtfully, and with purpose, that actually the adult takes the role of the facilitator there. And there are some resources where you need to do more of that facilitation at the forefront. And there are some resources where you may do that facilitation in the middle, or when you can see that they're, you know, coming up to a problem. A great example of that is watercolour paints. So I was in one of our nurseries last week. And actually, it's really frustrating to use a watercolour paint set if you don't know the rules for how to use watercolours. If you don't know that you need a wet paintbrush, and actually, you probably need to make 10, 15 circles so that the paint is opaque enough to then be able to see it on your blank sheet of paper. That is a really unfulfilling resource, however, a little bit of teaching, facilitating at the beginning on how to use that resource successfully. It gives children more independence as they go through that play and practice of using those paints. And it's then that you might choose to step away and observe and think and if they have a problem with that you might jump in, or you might not. Because you might be interfering. And it's all about having really, really attuned practitioners who know their unique children, and can make thoughtful choices about now. Not now. If it is now, what are you going to do? How are you going to support them? Is it enough to just say, it is tricky? How could we solve this problem? Do you have any ideas?
 
Mark
That's really interesting. Thank you, Helen, do you?
 
Helen
Well, I think there's two things here. First of all, we devalue play. Let's remember, play is a wonderful thing in its own right. And we've become so prescriptive around what early education should be, notwithstanding the fact that we have a world class EYFS curriculum. I had a catch up with some colleagues in Singapore earlier today who want to learn from us and they basically plagiarised our curriculum. So, you know, it's, it's important to remember that we are world leaders in that, but we devalue play. And I think as part of that we just we take on a too narrow definition of education, because education is, is just everyday life, isn't it? You know, it's from the spectrum of getting up in the morning to doing an open university course. But I was at my eldest daughter's school graduation yesterday. 16 just finished her GCSEs, you know, at the other end of the spectrum, and every brilliant teacher that stood up from that from the person in charge of welfare through to the head teacher talked about lifelong learning. And this isn't where education stops. This is, you know, and there's exactly the same applies to to youngest children. And some of the children that will learn most are those that don't have that that privileged life outside the setting. And that, you know, they will learn to live, communicate, apply themselves, and give give themselves almost unconsciously the ability to take on the more elements of pedagogy further down the line.
 
Molly
And it doesn't stop. Right, exactly, because we know we gave our practitioners that opportunity to play. You know, as part of our PD, you're also playing with different ideas about how to interact with children, how to facilitate learning, we're constantly playing with ideas about how to change curriculum, to see what works well, and that is play-based learning, it might have slightly more structure around it. But we all have as adults, the freedom to play and try things out for the first time. And you know, we should be giving that opportunity and that freedom to our children.
 
Shreena
It's not just about ideas, either. I mean, I'm genuinely quite addicted to playing with my three year olds train set. It's just a pretty good piece of kit.
 
Lee
What we were saying earlier is the long running debate, isn't it? And so in terms of teaching play, what should early education look like? And actually, you know, I wrote a report a long time ago now in terms of Ofsted history called ‘Teaching and play a balancing act’ to try and ensure that we did have the debate, and we did try and get somewhere along that journey. And I think interesting what you just said there, Shreena, I think, often we have a debate about well, what do we mean by teaching and teaching can be a bit of a dirty word, sometimes in in some kind of settings, because it brings connotations of desks, and pencils and paper, and you know, that can be teaching. But that isn't the only definition of teaching. And I think sometimes it's easier to think about teachers not being the only people that can teach, because I think already Molly and Helen have used lots of other words, practitioners, we could use educators, we could say parents, you know, it's anybody that that allows us to, or helps us to learn on our on our journey, whether we're children or adults. And I'd say obviously, parents are a child's first educator, are educators. And they teach every day they just don't realise they're doing it, or they haven't got a particular qualification. None of us do  in terms of parenting, or teaching qualification. But essentially, I just boil it down to kind of interactions. And that's a very simplistic view, but it's whether, you know, is it an informal interaction? Is it a more formal interaction? Does it involve resources or not? Is it kind of incidental or is it is it planned? And ultimately, we always end up at the point of saying, it's what's needed in terms of, you know, what, what a child is interested in what it is that they need to learn next? And obviously, then finding the best way of that particular child or group of children learning whatever it is that we have have in mind for them? So I think, kind of essentially where where we all are with the debate, I don't think we ever have an argument about education is important or not, I think that is something that we're all kind of united on, we're not short of any research evidence to prove that point. But the interesting debate is, what are others see the purpose of early education being? I think that's where your question was going Shreena around, you know, so what is it the parents want? And actually it will be different depending on individual parents circumstances won’t it, and I think the more we can do is to unpick the importance of what happens in earlier education establishments, whether that's pre school, whether, that's nursery or reception classes in school, with parents, you know, it's not there's not something kind of hidden that they don't understand it is. It is what they're doing at home, it's just that in settings, we have more resources, we have people, people who are kind of framed in terms of the right kinds of interaction. But that doesn't mean that what parents are doing at home is, is wrong, or that or the wrong thing.
 
Molly
What I can say about the parents that we have in settings, and actually, every single parent that I've engaged with, is that they want the best for their children, and all parents that I have ever met, want their child to succeed. And if for them, that looks like more care than education, that's because they believe that that's what's right for their child. And I think that's just such a fantastic starting point, that you can work on parent engagement on parents support, and, you know, work alongside each unique family, because different families are coming into education at such different points. If you've had your own personal experiences with education, that have been negative, or very compliance based, and actually you find speaking to an educational professional to be quite intimidating, then we owe it to those families to give their children just as much access to high quality education, as families who are coming and going, ‘I know exactly what the developmental milestones are, I know what early learning goal is, I want my child to succeed and be really academic’. Right? So it's about having a really open door policy, I think, and being willing to meet people and conversations, making it really non judgmental, and, and asking, you know, what do you want for your child? What are your aspirations? How can we help you with that in a way that empowers parents to feel like the best parent that they can be, and that they can teach their child and that they can play an active part in that, rather than unnecessarily engaging them in a care versus education debate. They're not thinking about that. They're thinking about their child, and what they want for them.
 
Helen
I'm gonna challenge you on that a bit, though, Molly,
 
Molly
Go ahead!
 
Helen
They’re parents that are through your door.
 
Molly
And you know what, you're right. It's subconscious bias there, because those are the parents that I've engaged with. And they've chosen to send their child to a nursery. Yeah, yeah. You know, so there is always going to be that bias. And that is why I can only speak from my experience. Yeah.
 
Helen
Not just that – they sought out your really good provision, you're really, you know, top of the range provision, and that we have no sense. I used to be a parent governor at North Islington nursery school. And they did some fantastic work, we did some fantastic work around outreach and going out to communities that simply were not going anywhere near because that is perceived as a middle white middle class, baby yoga, etc, etc. And we did some brilliant work outreach we there was a lot, there was a kind of a time where we had lots of Somali refugees, and do some brilliant work with that community. But it didn't reach everybody by any means. But it was a really pro-active piece of work. And I just think we don't have a sense of those people that aren't, you know, the ones that are that see the value and want to engage in the value, whether it's care, whether it's pedagogy.
 
Mark
That's a really important point isn't I mean, I suppose it boils down childhood’s not a level playing field and different parents will have different approaches and continue to emphasise. And I think I think you see the government trying to do it emphasise the importance of getting children into into early education. But you're, you're right, Helen, how do we how do we reach out to people and demonstrate that it's for them, and there are going to be different circumstances? And of course, cost and other things come into it. And then of course, there's there's a decision to be made about, do they use a child minder, do they go for a nursery? And that's a different approach. And I don't know whether it's worth exploring that a little more. And you know, what sort of expectations we put in on childminders and on nurseries and how they differ, I mean, obviously, we can talk from an Ofsted point of view, but But more generally, Helen and Molly, what what you think about that.
 
Molly
Think in terms of the expectations that we have for our nurseries, it's about really working with our families, to help them understand what we are, what we do, how we can support their child, how we can support them as a family, while having I think realistic expectations about what different ratios mean, what different care looks like for different age groups, and the different things that we can reasonably expect of our practitioners and our workforce, knowing that they have a huge amount of responsibility, and then not necessarily being paid in line with teaching staff in schools. So really protecting our staff while prioritising the best things for our children. So you know, when we're thinking about workload, I know that many, many nurseries and many parents really enjoy constant regular photo observations of their children. But what we know is that that's really high workload. And actually, often that takes away from the lived experience of interactions in that room. So by setting those expectations really clearly from the forefront, about what we've prioritised to make sure our children have the best experience. Parents know what they're going to get coming through the door that they you know, they can buy into a vision, while also understanding that actually, they may not have this constant interaction, but that's for the best for their child.
 
Helen
In some ways. The more we try and make this tangible, the more we lose the value because I remember again this is personal experience, but I remember when we chose a childminder for my two daughters when they were little. I mean she she had a good Ofsted rating but that didn't really you know, as long as she was registered and good, it was fine. What she offered more was the chemistry when we went through that door. And the and the clear love she was able to give to the children she took care of. Didn't have the biggest house they had a two bedroom flat above a shop in where we lived. But we instantly knew and my daughters absolutely adored her. And she sort of became part of the family. And I think that's the that's the wider piece that we do in early years is that part of the family support. They're not just the children. Childminders, do offer, you know, they offer the education and the Ofsted rating means really is a value to them, and they really value it. But very often they do offer that kind of family support as well. Look, if Mum has financial difficulties looking for work, mental health, this really came to light during the pandemic. And that going the extra mile out of out of standard hours, overnight stays, respite care, particular help for children with development delay, post pandemic, which, you know, we know is is a huge issue, it's hard to quantify, it's hard to really kind of pin down the enormous value of colleagues in the sector.
 
Shreena
I was gonna ask something which is off on a slightly different track, which is partly inspired by my six year old who was very bitter when his free flow periods were reduced on year one, which is basically about the transition between early education and year one, education education, if you like, and what you think best practices around that, what you've seen works well?
 
Molly
It's up to schools to decide how they would like to deliver that national curriculum, right. And what we know, around pedagogy is that you can meet the same end points, but you can choose the how, you know how we support children to get there. And there are still many, many opportunities within that year when national curriculum to have more structured opportunities to play and investigate. Maps is a fantastic example. You know, when we're thinking about aerial maps, you can go on a treasure hunt, and create your own maps that replicate your school grounds. And you're able to do that in a really playful and joyful way, while still meeting those aerial map national curriculum statements. Another one is investigating with materials. I think, you know, it's very likely that Helen’s done the same as me, both Helen and I can remember very clearly sitting around that water tray and going oh, yeah, you're right. It's cardboard, so it has absorbed all the water and then sunk. Perhaps that's not the best material to make your you know, your boat out of, maybe we should try something different. And you're doing those same curriculum statements, but a little bit more depth than them. In the national curriculum in year one, there's every opportunity to build in those interactions, to find those playful moments, to support children with that transition, where they don't have that real kind of unreasonable, unjust feeling that those free flow opportunities have been taken away from them. That's not to say that play isn't a real skill. And I don't think that we can underestimate the difficulty of doing play well, all of the practitioners that run play based settings be that nurseries, reception classes in year one, you know, and in some schools where they choose to have more playful learning across Key Stage two, that takes a huge amount of skill. And it is not something that a school can choose to undertake, without a huge amount of professional development that goes alongside it to make sure that we're doing it in a really thoughtful way. But I think, you know, schools really can feel empowered to make those choices. As long as it's backed in the curriculum. It's considered around child development and they're making sure they're putting all of those steps in the way that we do in nurseries to make sure that our play is working through thoughtful thorough formative assessment.
 
Lee
I mean, all transition’s tricky, isn't it? Whatever age we’re talking about but particularly so because there is, and we've kind of acknowledged this over time, there is a disconnect between kind of the early years foundation stage framework, and then what the national curriculum says in year one. And strangely, they were never written at the same time, and they're never updated at the same time. So, one is always kind of ahead or behind the other in terms of, you know, the expectations. So there is, there is some overlap and repetition, particularly in particularly in year one. Our position is obviously, as I alluded to earlier, that as long as you are choosing the right things for children to learn, then actually it is the decision of the individual teacher or team in terms of how best you know, what pedagogical strategy or approach to use to ensure that children learn that in the best possible way so that they know, they remember it and that they enjoy their experience. Of course, we know there are some kinds of ’best bets’ aren't there. So depending on what it is you want children to learn, we all know that there are better ways of doing some things than than others. But actually, there are still choices. And ultimately, as an inspector, I'll be interested in the choices that the different schools and teachers and leaders have made, and having a conversation around why they've decided to do it that way versus another. That doesn't mean I'm coming with a notion in the back of my head of how it should be done, and that's what I'm holding you against. And I think that's often what people think we do do. Okay, I'm coming in knowing that, you know, x has to be taught in a particular way, when actually it is about a conversation. However, you know, I will be kind of remiss of me not to say, you know, there are some things that you do have to teach, and you have to teach in some form of a direct way. So, I'm talking about reading, particularly at this point in time, you will not learn to read through a play based approach, you can potentially practice your reading through a play based approach, but in terms of actually learning, you know, the letters and the sound correspondences that just has to be taught in in some way. And again, it's coming back to a comment I made earlier around the role of parents because I think none of us would expect children to kind of just pick up through play, you know, their colours, or their numbers,  or shapes. But we actually teach that by kind of pointing things out on a on a walk through the park or wherever, when we're in the car, we say, oh, look with the sign, you know, the circle, the sign’s a circle, or it's a triangle. That’s teaching, that’s direct teaching, because we are seeing how have you noticed that that is a…? Insert the insert the right vocabulary. So I think it comes back to the debate about teaching versus play. And depending on where you are on the school, and a hierarchy, or certainly as we progress up through school, what balance you have between the two, but it is a tension. And it's one that we're hoping to get underneath a little bit more as an organisation over the autumn term, particularly that that transition from reception into year one.
 
Mark
Just wanted to come back a bit to something that Helen touched on around the work of the sector during the pandemic, which was obviously hugely challenging time and some great work was done. And at the time, we did some, some background work. We weren’t out inspecting, but we were doing some research work on what was going on in the sector. And certainly looking at early years. One of the big things that we were picking up on was the impact on on socialisation and the fact that obviously, children were were cooped up at home, and they weren't interacting with people, any people really other outside of their immediate family in the way that they might otherwise do. Obviously, we're a little bit down the road now. And I guess there are different new cohorts of children coming through who aren’t as, who weren't around, so weren’t affected in quite the same way. So I wonder if you’d talk a bit about where we are now in terms of that kind of COVID legacy, but also what you think the sector learnt from from from that time?
 
Helen
The whole pandemic for our members, about 15,000 members, majority of which are childminders, but practitioners across the sector. It was a dreadful time, not only personally for them, but for the children that they care about so much. It was a period of firefighting and survival. And I think we just we've not even begun to understand that post traumatic reaction to that. And I don't think that's an exaggeration. The other thing - I mean this is about the practitioners rather than the children but that's it really underlying the sense that they feel undervalued and under acknowledged so while you're clapping on doorsteps for you know health practitioners, etc, etc. They felt that they were always last to be considered whether it’s protection or financial support, etc, etc. That will have an effect on on the service they provide because they're exhausted I'm sure you can talk about it more directly. Scared, still getting on the bus every day to go to work, not able to wear protection in the workplace because obviously working with young children, yeah, and scared for their families at home. So, you know, really, really tough experience and a sense that it's not been acknowledged. And although we do have some initiatives within the stronger practice hubs, etc, not really been fully acknowledged the role that they played through the crisis and I hope it gets picked up in the inquiry, actually, I have raised this. And the children we know, this is anecdotal, we've not got kind of in depth data on this. But we know from our members that children are really … the ones that are born during the pandemic, only seeing, like you say, Mark, one or two adults, if that, in their own home, are now going into settings and starting that journey. And we're noticing huge differences in their, in their attachment issues, etc. Now, I'll hand over to Molly, because I'm sure she's got much more direct experience with that.
 
Molly
And I think I'll start with the children who, who were in settings during the pandemic, and talking about their journey. So as part of my role of Ark Start, I work with Ark schools, which has many, many schools in London, Birmingham, Portsmouth, and Hastings. And we are watching those cohorts going through school. And what's really standing out is that lack of time and support to develop those primaries of learning that are social communication. So we're not just talking about vocabulary, but we're talking about how you can use vocabulary to express yourself well and thoughtfully and kindly, empathy and prosocial behaviour, that regulatory skills around their executive functions, they still haven't been able to close those gaps. So those cohorts are going through and finding changes in routine, they're finding transitions, and they're finding, you know, the expectations put on them to be incredibly difficult. And I don't think we can undervalue how that stress, stress fills your body with cortisol. So when you're stressed, you actually learn less. So they are under stress with delays, and learning less making less progress because of that. So you can you can really see in those cohorts who had such a disjointed beginning of early education experience, how much that that has affected them going through the school. And really with those cohorts, the lessons learned is - don't rush through those primaries of learning. Because those specific areas of learning come when you are secure in those primes when you're secure in your well being. You know, you can use the Leuven scales to really track whether it's a child - and a grown up - is feeling happy, safe, secure, able to explore. And until we've got high levels of well being, high levels of involvement, and you know, that ability to live within either you know, your family home, your wider setting, in the park with friends, nursery, or you know, your reception class, sharing your space, sharing your resources, sharing your time, you know, you really aren’t able to build on that learning to become a fluent reader. And I think we've been able to use that learning in the nurseries and in the schools to really drive what we know, is important in our early education, so that by the time our children are in school, we know that they've got all of the knowledge and skills that they need to not just be ready, but to be ready to thrive.
 
LeeThe beauty of an inspection framework that focuses on curriculum is that actually it gives permission to kind of slow down the progress to whatever it is that you have planned. So that, you know circumstances, such as a pandemic, and let's hope we don't go through another one anytime soon. It gives us the permission to practitioners to say well actually, this is why our curriculum used to look like but this is what it needs to look like now, or actually, it's the same curriculum, but we need to over emphasise these bits of it, or we need to slow down our progress through these elements of it. As Molly said, you know that the prime areas, it's it's trying to reassure people that we do not have a rigid set view of what the curriculum should be other than the educational programmes in the EYFS. But actually, it's an interest in why you're doing it that way. Why are you spending more time on this than that. And again, increasingly, given the context that we're working in, that's because we do know, children are you know, they have particular delays more so than in the past. So, again, as always, my job in terms of in terms of Ofsted is to reassure people that, you know, from from our perspective, don't feel that we're expecting anything in particular, other than the minimum expectations that are set out in the EYFS.  There is still a long way to go for lots of children, you know, this isn't, this isn't something that can be fixed within what, a month, a year, two years plus, this is something that's gonna take a long time to work through, particularly when the very youngest children have missed out on some important developmental milestones. Because until you add those, it's impossible to you know, it's like building on sand isn't it? It’s impossible to kind of build something from that point until it's until those elements are secure. We've never had a strategic priority that is that is focused just on one particular age group. But we do now and obviously our strategy will last us from from kind of now up to 2027. And it's not just about I suppose curriculum, we are looking at everything that we think can contribute to that best start in life. So of course, we are interested in how our practitioners are trained in the first place. So I'm working with my further education and skills colleagues about what are the qualifications like in colleges so that we have the you know, the best possible trainees and the best possible future practitioners and managers and leaders of the future.
 
Shreena
Thanks very much to everyone for joining us for a really interesting podcast, thank you to Molly, thank you to Helen, our very own Mark and Lee, and see you another time.

Further education and skills - at the Festival of Education 2023

One of the talks from our FES team at this year's Festival of Education which was held at Wellington College in July.
 
SPEAKERS
Becca Clare, Martin Ward, Mike Finn from the Further Education and Skills team at Ofsted.
High quality curriculum and teaching in Further Education and Skills.
I'm Becca Clare, and I have with me two colleagues, Martin Ward, and Mike Finn, and we all work within the FES part of the curriculum unit in Ofsted. We're going to tell you a little bit about our work within Ofsted, some of the work that we're doing looking at high quality curriculum and pedagogy. And we're starting to do work at the moment where we're researching what high quality curriculum looks like in Further Education and Skills providers in a range of subjects. We're currently focusing on a particular number of subjects that include business education, Martin, here is our curriculum lead for Business Education, Human Resources, Mike is our curriculum lead for human resources, but also Construction and Engineering employability programmes, ESOL, and software development and further education skills initial teacher education. So those are our initial wave of subjects. And when we're looking at how a curriculum is designed, we're looking at high quality teaching and wider processes and policies that support high quality education with a focus on those particular subjects. And we'd be really - this is a very genuine invitation - we'd be very delighted to hear from you, if you or your colleagues are working on curriculum design or pedagogy in those areas, in particular, and you'd like to share your ideas. So when we're out and about at events like this at conferences, we usually do get people who contact us afterwards and say, How can we be involved in this work. And we'd very much like to hear from you, if you think it's something that you'd be interested in doing. We may well go on and look at further subjects in due course as well.
So we're not we're not stopping there. So what we do is, essentially, what we're doing is we're drawing on the research and principles that underpin the education inspection framework. And looking at how the that research and those principles apply to a range of subjects in Further Education and Skills. We're drawing on that research, we're drawing on our expert working groups that we have around each of the subjects that we're looking at. And we'll be producing in the autumn, a series of publications in November, that look at those subjects in particular. And then in the last week of November, we're going to have a conference session in Birmingham on the 29th of November. Further details will be released soon. So I'm going to pass over to my colleague, Martin, who's going to talk about the content of the curriculum curriculum intent, in other words.
 
So what are we looking at in our work? A big focus for us is what constitutes a high quality curriculum in each subject to the further education context. And as you know, the education inspection framework, or EIF, focuses on the curriculum. And our view is that the curriculum is at the heart of good education. We don't specify what a given curriculum should look like. But our research underpinning the EEIF highlights a range of principles, which we in the curriculum unit are applying to a range of subjects and contexts in our work, you will know that the EIF focuses on curriculum intent, implementation, and impact. And intent is really two things, the content of the curriculum and the way it's sequenced or ordered. It's important that the curriculum content is ambitious, and providers need to have high expectations for learners and apprentices. And this doesn't necessarily mean a curriculum that's very broad, although it might be. But what it does mean is that the curriculum should focus on the most useful the most powerful knowledge and skills that experts agree are key in each context. In any subject, it's likely to be the principles and skills that really form the foundation of a subject. The things that our learner or apprentice needs to know if they are to develop expertise, rather than just operate within the confines of a narrow role. And it's crucial that the current current curriculum content is sequenced or ordered in a way that enables learners and apprentices to make good progress in understanding and skills from their starting points. So if the right foundations are laid, other knowledge and skills can be slotted in over time. So curriculum leaders need to give thought to the components of complex composite tasks, and plan a logical order in which to teach the components. And in the next two slides, we'll look at some examples of good quality curriculum content and sequencing within specific subjects. So here are a few examples within business education, we'll undoubtedly look at models and theories to explain the complex reality in which business operates. But in a high quality curriculum, not only will these models and theories be taught well, but through the curriculum learners will be taught about the nature of these models and their purpose, and that they are often an abstraction from reality, often holding some values constant, whilst trying to explain the impact of another value. Say, for example, in business, you might refer to the tendency for higher interest rates to reduce inflation, but also in a high quality curriculum realise that because of other impacts of costs of wages, or raw material costs, that this might not be immediately apparent in the real world. So getting an understanding of the value of models and theories across the business education curriculum. And in joinery and carpentry, this curriculum is often viewed from the perspective of practical competencies. There's nothing wrong in that at all. But the really powerful knowledge might also include an understanding of how wood grows, how this affects its qualities, and its strengths, its malleability. And therefore, although this is rarely taught, it is powerful knowledge, and certainly something that a master joiner would understand. And within employability programmes when developing professional behaviours, it's important to plan a wide selection of these behaviours and place important features like attendance and punctuality within a broader, ambitious context. And something that is something for all employees to embrace, and not just those at the start of their employment route. The same with careers advice and guidance, the curriculum should build to provide a big and extensive picture about the potential for a career for the potential for the learner over time, and not simply a narrow view of what employment might offer the learner at a single point in time at the beginning of their career. And within HR, within learning and development, an ambitious approach to teaching and the topic of training and development would be through teaching learners to understand Evidence Based Learning Theories before they consider how people learn at work, or start to develop training programmes in the workplace. Therefore, apprentices can draw upon evidence to understand what effective training and learning programmes look like. Apprentices should understand which theories are supported by research, as well as the limitations of those theories that lack credible evidence to support them. For example, learners who are taught about cognitive approaches to learning are more likely to consider effective pedagogy when developing training programmes. They can focus on strategies that are designed to improve an employee's ability to remember the content they're trained to understand, such as through repetition and retrieval practice over time, to embed topics in their long term memory. They may also think about designing training around what employees already know, so that employees are able to learn new material by linking this with what they have previously been taught. Whereas a less ambitious curriculum may focus on things like theories of learning styles, there isn't sufficient evidence to show the effectiveness of learning styles theory, and where learning styles are taught, inspectors should check that learners are aware of the criticisms of these theories and the potential lack of impact going forward. And within ITE or initial teacher training, the curriculum can be planned to demonstrate and explain the importance of subject specific pedagogy. For example, the teaching methods and types of resources that you should use in modern foreign language maybe be very different from those approaches in design technology. And it's also important particularly in apprenticeships, that where there is a highly practical curriculum that the underpinning knowledge and principles are taught so that learners and apprentices can apply their techniques better and understand how to adapt them to a range of different situations or customers. So as well as the curriculum content, we also need to make sure that the curriculum is sequenced in logical ways. And it may be different ways of sequencing in different subjects. So for example, in business education, it's really important that the constituent parts of a complex topic are taught in that particular order. So when teaching about the marketing mix, for instance, it's important that you look at the elements of pricing, product, place and promotion, before looking at the complex idea of marketing strategy. And also in ESOL, the sequencing of the curriculum and trying to get the right balance between the importance of particular settings, but also in making sure that learners understand the principles that underlie their long term learning of the language. And within the future of teacher education, it might be that the sequencing there rather than sequencing from topic to topic is actually a spiral curriculum where you have to address a range of different topics, and then go back again, and look at them in more depth over time, because in the teaching, teachers are already in the classroom. So they need to have a good understanding of a range of topics just to get started in the classroom. And then you can return to those topics in more depth to improve the quality over time.
There are also different types of knowledge, knowing that something, knowing how something works, and knowing when to use something. And it may well be that in some subjects, the sequencing of that knowledge over time is a valid and important approach. So for instance, in business, it's very important to know about stock control theories, to know how to use a stock control theory, and more importantly, knowing when to use it, to make sure that your business works efficiently. A particular challenge within further education is for apprenticeships, and sequencing off and on the job training. And what we find is that in high quality apprenticeships, the links with the employer mean that the off the job training is sequenced well and, and is taught before the apprentice goes on to the the factory floor, and actually uses that skill and knowledge in the place. And finally, in subjects like construction and hospitality and care. It's really important to teach about the primacy of health and safety. And that that is taught early in the course, but then also revisited over time to make sure that that learning is reinforced, as different contexts are met by the apprentice. So that's looking at the content and the sequencing. And Mike is now going to look at implementation.
 
Thank you. Yes, I'm going to be looking at curriculum implementation and what we mean by implementation is effective teaching, and effective assessment. Effective Teaching means focusing learners and or apprentices attention on the knowledge content, and helping them to remember it longer term. A key consideration is whether apprentices or learners are novices or experts. This distinction is actually more relevant than age. Research shows that novices need more instructional teaching about new content before they're able to use or apply this information to situations or case studies. However, for experts, teaching is more effective if experts get a chance to use the knowledge that they've already obtained and apply this to case studies, simulations, or situations. Now in Further Education and Skills, we naturally encounter a wide range of teaching approaches, from one to one sessions, through to university style lectures on the job demonstrations, classroom seminars, or sessions in a workshop. What's most important and essentially in all cases, the key question we will want to explore is, did the teaching methods used help learners to make progress through the curriculum? We've seen some good examples for instance of teachers using realistic hospital ward environments and medical dummies to teach nursing associate apprentices how to use the equipment they will need at work. In addition, we've seen effective practice in level two functional skills maths, where learners work through problems quietly with an expert teacher, consolidating their understanding of ratio, and proportion so that they can work out recipe quantities in their catering courses. Looking at assessment, we look to see whether assessment is being used in ways that help learners to make progress. Does assessment help teachers to spot gaps and misconceptions in learners knowledge? And where those gaps and misconceptions are identified? Do they use this information to take action to close gaps in knowledge or to correct misconceptions? Do teachers use assessment to adjust teaching or future teaching? For example, particular topics where reteaching might be required, or where particular learners may need further support and guidance? Do teachers assess what learners know and can do at the start of their courses? We know that learners can only learn new material if it's linked to what they already know. So looking at high quality teaching, teaching as a profession is evidence based, as for example is medicine. Evidence based approaches help learners to make progress. Cognitive Science is evidence based. It helps us to understand how to teach learners so they remember what they have been taught. Evidence based teaching is not about doing action research. It's about using what's already been credibly researched. Pedagogy and assessment should be driven by curriculum content. As Martin has pointed out, teachers should select high quality, ambitious content that will help learners to succeed on their course, and importantly beyond into their future career. As pointed out, this current curriculum content needs to be sequenced logically, so learners can build upon what they are learning. Our short term memories can become overloaded. Learners therefore need time to transfer what they are learning to their long term memory. This will then free up working memory to take in new information. So chunking information, and then using specific techniques that transfer information into long term memory is useful. So there's a range of particularly well researched, and evidence based teaching practices that I'm gonna go through with a couple of examples. Firstly, interleaving. This is where learners are learning multiple concepts or skills. This is different to blocking where you may, for example, teach one topic thoroughly, and ensure learners mastered this before moving on. So I'm gonna give you an example from mathematics, calculating volumes of different shapes alternating between these and revisiting. The calculations themselves differ. But all of those are similar enough to be interleaved. They're all types of calculating volumes. Another effective technique in terms of boosting memory is using spaced retrieval or spaced repetition. This focuses on teachers getting learners to retrieve what they have learned before, as that whole process of retrieving what you have learned helps to build your memory. Think about this though as pulling information out, rather than teachers cramming information in. So methods such as low stakes testing, quizzes, or setting questions from earlier lessons, or topics in the programme can be particularly effective here. So retrieval practice is most effective when you get learners to do something with the information rather than repeating the teaching. Another effective practice is dual coding. This is where you combine text and images or diagrams on resources. We know that visuals are powerful for communicating complex ideas in an efficient way. It takes a great many words to describe the simplest of images. less effective teaching may overly focus on strategies that are not backed by sufficient evidence. For example, selecting learning strategies to meet all learners learning styles. Teaching in essence, should focus on experts teaching content, it's important to note we learn what we pay attention to. Therefore, it is important that learning methods do not distract from learning. If, for example, there are too many social demands, attached to a task say for a group of novices, group work or presenting their ideas back, learners may focus on the social demands, rather than on the content they are learning. Effective in class assessment and questioning will ensure that if learners develop misconceptions or gaps in their knowledge, teachers will spot these and put them right or close any gaps in learning before they move on to something new. For apprentices, it's important for providers to ensure that on the job training is of a high quality on the job training should align well with what apprentices are being taught off the job. There should be access to useful and high quality opportunities for apprentices to put into practice, what they are learning about. Providers may want to consider who in the workplace is providing teaching or training support, and did they have the expertise they need to support apprentices. In 2022 Ofsted alongside HMIP undertook a joint review into reading education in prisons. And last week, a follow up report, reviewing the findings against last year's recommendations was published. This report has concluded while some progress has been made in meeting the recommendations set in 2022, improvements in key areas, such as screening, assessment, resourcing strategy development have been too slow. That's a really useful read if you're involved in prison education, reviewing the effectiveness of reading and the progress made in the last year. In terms of high expectations, this is demonstrated most forcibly by the study Pygmalion in the Classroom. And I'm not going to go through the full research with you now. But in essence, the research concludes that when teachers expect students to do well they do. And when teachers do not have such high expectations, performance and progress are not encouraged. So, really, teachers expectations influence performance. So what might effective practice look like in terms of high expectations? Well, teachers having high expectations about what all learners can achieve, not referring to groups as less able, more able, teachers setting ambitious goals for all learners, employers having high expectations and standards for trainees and apprentices. Teachers vary their support for learners but do not reduce the challenge for students. So for example, through avoiding differentiation by lower level outcomes. Teachers have high expectations for all including learners with special educational needs and or disabilities. There should be no limiting of the curriculum. In relation to continuing professional development, CPD, there are three particularly key areas to consider here. Firstly, that teachers remain up to date with industry practice. And this is vital for example, in engineering, understanding green developments in engineering. Training should also help teachers to maintain and update their subject knowledge. As I mentioned earlier, teaching is through expertise and therefore that's critical to effective teaching. So for example, expert teachers will provide clear explanations of content and they will ask useful questions. Third key element of effective CPD is effective training on pedagogy that considers evidence based approaches as I've discussed earlier. I'm now going to move on to look at the impact of the curriculum. First and foremost, what we're looking for when we're looking at impact is do learners make progress through the curriculum? Do they know more? And remember it? Can they do more than they could at the beginning of the programme? Do they improve their performance at work? So do apprentices gain promotions or increased responsibility? Do they achieve their qualifications? We always bear data in mind. But we will always use data to question and seek context. Where relevant do they progress to the next stage in their education successfully, including to higher education? And in some particular kinds of provisions such as high needs, we will want to know whether appropriate curricular goals such as increased independence or meeting ehcp outcomes have been met.
There are various ways you can get involved in our work, particularly if you're interested in the subjects that we've mentioned, through working groups through coming to our conferences, and through reading the publications that we're making, so do get in touch. If you think that you'd be interested in doing that.